Author Topic: 3-4-6 ? (Read 41788 times)

bama_stripes · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2021, 06:32:34 AM »

Quote from: fudilligas on June 04, 2021, 05:41:54 AM

To the best of my knowledge, a punt and a field goal are both scrimmage kicks and there is no difference between the two as far as the numbering exception is concerned....on downs 1,2 and 3 you must have 4 players numbered 50-79 on the line and if the numbering exception is used that player must snap the ball and be an interior lineman....7-2-5b, exception 1....it does not state field goal attempt only...on 4th down there is not a numbering requirement

Rules 2-14-2a & 2b define scrimmage kick formations. The 2a formation is what we refer to as “FG formation” and the 2b formation is what we refer to as “punt formation”.

Rule 7-2-5b EXP1 allows the snapper to wear a non-50 through 79 number on downs 1-3, but ONLY for the 2-14-2a scrimmage kick formation (FG formation). It doesn’t extend the exception to punt formation.

HLinNC · « **Reply #26 on:** June 04, 2021, 06:44:07 AM »

Correct- just has to be in an SKF- EITHER of these:
2-14-2
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more
behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and
receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind
that player in position to attempt a place kick, or
b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in
position to receive the long snap.

7-2-5b

EXCEPTIONS:
1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmagekick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to
49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under thisexception, Team A shall have four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its
line of scrimmage. The snapper in the game under this exception must be
between the ends and is an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that
down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).
2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a
scrimmage-kick formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99
may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the
game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of
scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass
receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #27 on:** June 04, 2021, 07:29:22 AM »

Quote from: HLinNC on June 04, 2021, 06:44:07 AM

Correct- just has to be in an SKF- EITHER of these:
2-14-2
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more
behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and
receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind
that player in position to attempt a place kick, or
b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in
position to receive the long snap.

7-2-5b

EXCEPTIONS:
1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmagekick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to
49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under thisexception, Team A shall have four players wearing numbers 50-79 on its
line of scrimmage. The snapper in the game under this exception must be
between the ends and is an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that
down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).
2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a
scrimmage-kick formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99
may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the
game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of
scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass
receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b)

Read the exception closely. The first phrase “as in 2-14-2A”. It specifically limits the exception to the first field goal formation. The “A” part is critical. If they hadn’t meant to limit it to this particular formation they would not have added the clause.

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HLinNC · « **Reply #28 on:** June 04, 2021, 08:19:06 AM »

Yep

fudilligas · « **Reply #29 on:** June 04, 2021, 01:06:39 PM »

thanks for the clarification ......learn something new everyday....that is why this is a great forum

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #30 on:** June 06, 2021, 05:07:51 PM »

An another consideration on a field goal attempt is the holder NEEDS to have a knee on the ground to have the numbering exception. I've had several coaches ask about the holder being in a "catcher's crouch". My response was that if he did ,the numbering exception could not be used.

SCHSref · « **Reply #31 on:** June 07, 2021, 01:38:36 PM »

It's important to remember that being in that correct holder position offers the holder protection or there ain't no roughing the holder.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #32 on:** June 07, 2021, 02:15:33 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on June 07, 2021, 01:38:36 PM

It's important to remember that being in that correct holder position offers the holder protection or there ain't no roughing the holder.

Do you have caseplay to support this? Because while it is true that to use the numbering exception there must be a player with his knee on the ground before the snap, there is no requirement for him to have his knee on the ground at the time of the kick. There is also nothing in the rules to suggest the holder has to have a knee on the ground at all, other than to use the numbering exception.

Also, the definition of a holder does not state anything about a knee on the ground.

ART. 7 ... A Holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.

So in theory, a holder can line up, receive the ball put it down and hold it while being kicked without ever putting a knee on the ground. The knee on the ground is not what makes him a holder. Is the fact that he controlled the ball on the ground.

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SCHSref · « **Reply #33 on:** June 07, 2021, 03:58:51 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on June 07, 2021, 02:15:33 PM

Do you have caseplay to support this? Because while it is true that to use the numbering exception there must be a player with his knee on the ground before the snap, there is no requirement for him to have his knee on the ground at the time of the kick. There is also nothing in the rules to suggest the holder has to have a knee on the ground at all, other than to use the numbering exception.

Also, the definition of a holder does not state anything about a knee on the ground.

ART. 7 ... A Holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.

So in theory, a holder can line up, receive the ball put it down and hold it while being kicked without ever putting a knee on the ground. The knee on the ground is not what makes him a holder. Is the fact that he controlled the ball on the ground.

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Case play does not equal the rules. Is a holder a holder if he isn't legally considered a holder? Without a knee in the ground, they aren't in a legal SK formation. If he isn't in a legal SK formation, then he isn't afforded protection.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #34 on:** June 07, 2021, 04:28:31 PM »

An interesting question. As suggested, 2-24-7 (Kicks) defines a "Place kick", and a "place-kick holder", but does not address a "knee on the ground". 2-32-7 (Player Designations), defines a "holder", but again DOESN"T address a "knee on the ground".

However, 4-1-2 (Dead Ball and EOD) addresses two IMPORTANT EXCEPTIONS and a NOTE relating to keeping the ball/play "alive" when a Holder does assume a position WITH a "knee on the ground".

2-14-2a (Formations) does require, (a Scrimmage Kick Formation)-A) "...a player is in position "with a knee on the ground" 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage in position to be the "holder" and receive a long snap & with another player 3 yds or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick.

GA Umpire · « **Reply #35 on:** June 07, 2021, 04:44:30 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on June 07, 2021, 03:58:51 PM

Case play does not equal the rules. Is a holder a holder if he isn't legally considered a holder? Without a knee in the ground, they aren't in a legal SK formation. If he isn't in a legal SK formation, then he isn't afforded protection.

SCHSref:
The way I interpret the rule, is the potential holder must have his knee on the ground at the snap.
The fact that his knee might be off the ground after the snap is irrelevant.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #36 on:** June 07, 2021, 04:45:37 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on June 07, 2021, 03:58:51 PM

Case play does not equal the rules. Is a holder a holder if he isn't legally considered a holder? Without a knee in the ground, they aren't in a legal SK formation. If he isn't in a legal SK formation, then he isn't afforded protection.

I think that’s a stretch. Question- if a player holds the ball without a knee on the ground and the kicker kicks it, will you throw a flag for illegal formation? I don’t think so.

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CalhounLJ · « **Reply #37 on:** June 07, 2021, 04:47:26 PM »

Quote from: GA Umpire on June 07, 2021, 04:44:30 PM

SCHSref:
The way I interpret the rule, is the potential holder must have his knee on the ground at the snap.
The fact that his knee might be off the ground after the snap is irrelevant.

I don’t think this is even true. There is no requirement for any player to have a knee on the ground at the snap. The only requirement is that a player line up in position with a knee on the ground. Nothing precludes him from picking up his knee before the snap.

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SCHSref · « **Reply #38 on:** June 07, 2021, 05:01:13 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on June 07, 2021, 04:45:37 PM

I think that’s a stretch. Question- if a player holds the ball without a knee on the ground and the kicker kicks it, will you throw a flag for illegal formation? I don’t think so.

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My point is aboit protection afforded. Can you rough thd passer if he throws an illegal forward pass? Can a kicker be roughed if he doesn't kick the ball? Is a holder afforded protection if he knee is never on the ground?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #39 on:** June 07, 2021, 05:04:05 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on June 07, 2021, 05:01:13 PM

My point is aboit protection afforded. Can you rough thd passer if he throws an illegal forward pass? Can a kicker be roughed if he doesn't kick the ball? Is a holder afforded protection if he knee is never on the ground?

I get it, but according to the definitions, a kicker is a kicker when he kicks it, a passer is a passer when he passes it,and a holder is a holder when he controls the ball on the ground. According to the definition, a holder doesn’t need to have a knee on the ground to be a holder. If that’s true, then a holder can be roughed even though he he doesn’t have a knee on the ground.

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AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #40 on:** June 07, 2021, 07:04:17 PM »

Until such time that the rule makers either add language to specifically require a holder to have a knee on the ground, or confirm it's not necessary we will be limited to relying on our common sense, judgment and understanding of the purpose of what we thoroughly understand what a specific rule was intended to accomplish and/or prevent.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #41 on:** June 07, 2021, 07:07:54 PM »

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on June 07, 2021, 07:04:17 PM

Until such time that the rule makers either add language to specifically require a holder to have a knee on the ground, or confirm it's not necessary we will be limited to relying on our common sense, judgment and understanding of the purpose of what we thoroughly understand what a specific rule was intended to accomplish and/or prevent.

I disagree. What’s not prohibited is allowed, and what is not required is… well, not required. If there is no requirement for a knee on the ground to be a holder, then a knee on the ground is not required.

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KWH · « **Reply #42 on:** June 07, 2021, 07:22:27 PM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on June 06, 2021, 05:07:51 PM

An another consideration on a field goal attempt is the holder NEEDS to have a knee on the ground to have the numbering exception. I've had several coaches ask about the holder being in a "catcher's crouch". My response was that if he did ,the numbering exception could not be used.

Once again, I agree with Ralph.

* To meet the 2-14-2a (Field Goal) scrimmage kick formation definition, the holder is REQUIRED to have his knee on the ground.

* To be granted the numbering exception which is described in 7-2-5b EXCEPTION 2, Team K must be in the formation described in 2-14-2a or the formation described in 2-14-2b

* If Team K chooses to snap the ball with the holder knee not touching, they simply must have 5 players on the LOS number 50-79 AND they would Not be utilizing the numbering exception

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #43 on:** June 07, 2021, 07:23:48 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on June 07, 2021, 02:15:33 PM

Do you have caseplay to support this? Because while it is true that to use the numbering exception there must be a player with his knee on the ground before the snap, there is no requirement for him to have his knee on the ground at the time of the kick. There is also nothing in the rules to suggest the holder has to have a knee on the ground at all, other than to use the numbering exception.

Also, the definition of a holder does not state anything about a knee on the ground.

ART. 7 ... A Holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking tee.

So in theory, a holder can line up, receive the ball put it down and hold it while being kicked without ever putting a knee on the ground. The knee on the ground is not what makes him a holder. Is the fact that he controlled the ball on the ground.

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I agree with this. Totally.

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CalhounLJ · « **Reply #44 on:** June 07, 2021, 07:24:41 PM »

Quote from: KWH on June 07, 2021, 07:22:27 PM

Once again, I agree with Ralph.

* To meet the 2-14-2a (Field Goal) scrimmage kick formation definition, the holder is REQUIRED to have his knee on the ground.

* To be granted the numbering exception which is described in 7-2-5b EXCEPTION 2, Team K must be in the formation described in 2-14-2a or the formation described in 2-14-2b

* If Team K chooses to snap the ball with the holder knee not touching, they simply must have 5 players on the LOS number 50-79 AND they would Not be utilizing the numbering exception

I agree with THIS. Totally. Sorry don’t know what happened the first time.

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CalhounLJ · « **Reply #45 on:** June 07, 2021, 07:45:10 PM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on June 06, 2021, 05:07:51 PM

An another consideration on a field goal attempt is the holder NEEDS to have a knee on the ground to have the numbering exception. I've had several coaches ask about the holder being in a "catcher's crouch". My response was that if he did ,the numbering exception could not be used.

I agree.

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KWH · « **Reply #46 on:** June 07, 2021, 08:55:03 PM »

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on June 07, 2021, 07:04:17 PM

Until such time that the rule makers either add language to specifically require a holder to have a knee on the ground, or confirm it's not necessary we will be limited to relying on our common sense, judgment and understanding of the purpose of what we thoroughly understand what a specific rule was intended to accomplish and/or prevent.

ALF - Please see RULE 2-14-2a and you will find the language which specifically requires a holder to have a knee on the ground.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #47 on:** June 07, 2021, 09:48:18 PM »

Quote from: KWH on June 07, 2021, 08:55:03 PM

ALF - Please see RULE 2-14-2a and you will find the language which specifically requires a holder to have a knee on the ground.

Thanks KWH, by any chance would that be the same NFHS: 2-14-2a (FORMATIONS) I quoted earlier at 4:28 PM today? 13 responses ago.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #48 on:** June 08, 2021, 07:00:38 AM »

Technically speaking, 2-14-2a does not require a holder to have a knee on the ground. It requires a player to have a knee on the ground. A player doesn’t become a holder until he controls the ball in the ground or tee. And he doesn’t need a knee on the ground to do that.

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AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #49 on:** June 08, 2021, 07:54:02 AM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on June 08, 2021, 07:00:38 AM

Technically speaking, 2-14-2a does not require a holder to have a knee on the ground. It requires a player to have a knee on the ground. A player doesn’t become a holder until he controls the ball in the ground or tee. And he doesn’t need a knee on the ground to do that.

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Are you serious? 2-14-2a, "A player IN POSITION WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND 7 YARDS OR MORE BEHIND THE LOS, IN POSITION TO BE THE HOLDER & RECEIVE THE LONG SNAP & WITH ANOTHER PLAYER 3 YARDS OR LESS BEHIND THAT PLAYER IN POSITION TO ATTEMPT A PLACE KICK." seems a pretty unambiguous description of who needs to be where to satisfy describing the requirements of a "Scrimmage formation", to allow a player to benefit from the 2 Exceptions and Note provided in 4-2-2 (Dead ball & end of the Down).