3-4-6 ?

[CalhounLJ]

Are you serious?  2-14-2a, "A player IN POSITION WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND 7 YARDS OR MORE BEHIND THE LOS, IN POSITION TO BE THE HOLDER & RECEIVE THE LONG SNAP & WITH ANOTHER PLAYER 3 YARDS OR LESS BEHIND THAT PLAYER IN POSITION TO ATTEMPT A PLACE KICK." seems a pretty unambiguous description of who needs to be where to satisfy describing the requirements of a "Scrimmage formation", to allow a player to benefit from the 2 Exceptions and Note provided in 4-2-2 (Dead ball & end of the Down).

Oh I’m very serious. Read it slowly and objectively. The phrase “in position to be the holder” in no way implies that the player IS the holder. Only that he or she intends to BECOME the holder. What are the requirements for that player to become the holder?  He or she becomes the holder if/when he or she controls the ball on the ground or tee. Does he or she have to have a knee on the ground to control the ball? NO.

Continue reading about the other player. The rule states there has to be another player 3 yds behind that player in position to attempt a place kick. Is that player the kicker? Not unless he or she kicks the ball. Just taking the position doesn’t define the player. Their actions define their designation.


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[CalhounLJ]

Consider this play in context of the roughing the holder question. Let's say the formation is just like the book in 2-14-2a. There is a player 7yds deep with his knee on the ground, ready to receive the snap. The snap is high, over his head, to the other player, who subsequently runs with the ball. Meanwhile, the nose shoots the gap and clocks the player with the knee on the ground. Do we have roughing the holder? Of course not. Why? Because he never fulfilled the requirements of a holder.

Now, next play. Same formation, only this time the snap is directly to the guy who began the formation with his knee on the ground. Only this time, simultaneously with the snap, the player lifts his knee into a "catcher's crouch." He receives the ball, controls it on the ground, and the other player kicks it. Immediately after the kick, the DE shooting in from the left clocks the guy who was controlling the ball at the time of the kick. Do we have roughing the holder? Absolutely. Why? Because the player fulfilled the requirements of a holder.

[CalhounLJ]

One more and I'm done. Same situation as in #2 above, except the player in position to become a holder, after calling the team to the set position, lifts his knee into the catcher's crouch BEFORE THE SNAP. He receives the ball, controls it on the ground, it's kicked and he's clocked. Do we have roughing the holder? Absolutely. Why? Because he fulfilled the definition of a holder.

The only issue with the knee on the ground in the context of this discussion is not roughing, it's numbering. If that player takes an initial position in the formation with a knee on the ground, the numbering exception applies, even if he subsequently lifts it before the kick. According to the rule.

[AlUpstateNY]

We always have a choice.  We can/should look at every situation for a specific violation of a specific rule, as well as render a judgment as to whether, what we are actually observing, does or does not, actually rise to the level of violating any specific rules that monitor the general behavior and tenor of the rules, such as 2-16-b or c, 9-4-3b, c or g.

In the absence of exactly specific rule coverage and specification to address, detail and enumerate every potential violation, enforcement is often dependent on the specific action being observed and the judgment of the covering official and their  understanding of the protective intent of multiple rules, while evaluating whether the action being observed threatens any of the protective restrictions of the rules, to the extent that a formal consequence is justified and appropriate.

Limiting the appropriate response, of observed actions, to the presence, or absence, of exact and specific inclusion and specification in the actual text of a/any rule is impossible and conflicts with the NFHS "Game Officials Manual"  instruction, "Game officials must have a football sense which supersedes the technical application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly. Game officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules.", which will NEVER be able to specify and/or enumerate EVERY possible violation.         

[CalhounLJ]

I guess that's a default response with you...

[AlUpstateNY]

I guess that's a default response with you...

Perhaps, once worth considering and inherent to the job description.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, the "catcher's crouch" positioning of the holder is usually part of a trick play.
IMHO, trick plays need to adhere to the letter of the law. 
IMHO, an accepted response could be : "Coach, your holder will not be meeting the requirement for the numbering exception and MAY NOT get protection for holder roughing. Remember, safety is the most important part of our game. "

[CalhounLJ]

IMHO, the "catcher's crouch" positioning of the holder is usually part of a trick play.
IMHO, trick plays need to adhere to the letter of the law. 
IMHO, an accepted response could be : "Coach, your holder will not be meeting the requirement for the numbering exception and MAY NOT get protection for holder roughing. Remember, safety is the most important part of our game. "

I agree. We have a team who runs a trick play out of this formation. The end peels back and the player pitches it to him. Which is legal. To keep the other team from knowing when they will do it, the player always holds in the catcher's position. and we give him protection.

The biggest thing I watch for when I have this team is the player catching it in the squat and then putting the knee on the ground while putting the ball on the ground. Because then he's down at the spot...

[AlUpstateNY]

Perhaps some helpful official might simply explain to this ingenious coach, that his holder, WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND, can present the same illusion and deception, perhaps even more effectively,  by simply adhering to EXCEPTION 2 of NFHS 4-2-2a by simply rising to (before) advancing, handing, kick or pass.

[CalhounLJ]

Perhaps some helpful official might simply explain to this ingenious coach, that his holder, WITH A KNEE ON THE GROUND, can present the same illusion and deception, perhaps even more effectively,  by simply adhering to EXCEPTION 2 of NFHS 4-2-2a by simply rising to (before) advancing, handing, kick or pass.

Or, we can let him coach his team the way he wants, in accordance with the rules...

[AlUpstateNY]

ABSOLUTELY, and that's a choice each of us have to make for ourselves, as to how we see our role.