6 man OT foul question

[dammitbobby]

During their possession in the 2nd OT period, Team B has scored a touchdown, to bring the score to 64-66, Team A leading.  On the try, the snapper sends the ball over the head of the holder A12, who recovers the ball and manages to run into the end zone.  B38 punches A22 and throws him to the ground as A12 enters the end zone.

Also, same play, but no fouls occur.

Ruling?

 
Primarily interested in philosophy/how it is handled when H/L have forward progress/TD or not, but don't see the foul, and the U/R that have the foul, aren't sure of the location of the runner when foul occurred, how to determine dead ball foul or live ball foul.  Matters quite a bit in this scenario.

[dammitbobby]

Same play/no fouls:  (7-1-4) 11. Unless the ball is kicked or forward passed, it may not be advanced beyond the neutral zone until AFTER AN EXCHANGE has been made between the receiver of the snap and another player. 5 yards and LOD, which would mean the game is over.

Slightly different scenario: kick is blocked, A picks it up and runs it in.  Ruling?

[CosmoKramer]

As you've now pointed out, the first listing of the play is a foul for not having an exchange before advancing the ball.  So game will be over. 

With the correction that involves the kick being blocked, if at all possible I'm not going to reward a team for a successful try when there's such a UNR (punching).  If it's bang/bang occurring when the ball is crossing the goal line I'm pushing to go with the foul occurred before the score and game is over.  I can live with it being so close that the blame needs to be put on the player for the punch.  However, if you now for a fact the ball crossed first, you have to live with that fact and count the score and proceed.  That's my take.

[Legacy Zebra]

In the first two scenarios, it would have to be clearly after the ball was dead for me to make it a dead ball foul in this situation. And I know that is not the approved philosophy, but in the interest of crew credibility (and that of officiating in general), I would want it to be a live ball foul so we could enforce it. It would kill our credibility to throw a flag for a punch and then wave it off and leave the field unless it was obviously after the play. If you did rule it a live ball foul, B’s PF and A’s illegal procedure would offset and the try would be replayed. If you judged it to be a dead ball foul, A’s illegal procedure includes loss of down thus ending the game and the punch by B technically occurs after the game and is thus not in our jurisdiction.

In the third play, the ball is dead as soon as the kick is blocked and is obviously unsuccessful. Anything that happens after that is after the game and not our jurisdiction.

But let’s look at a similar situation. Instead of trailing, the teams are tied in the second possession series of the second OT. Team A attempts a field goal that is blocked and stays behind the neutral zone. Holder A12 picks up the loose ball and runs across the goal line. Give a ruling with and without the punch from B38.

[dammitbobby]

The exception from 7-1-4 allows any member of A to advance a loose football after it has been touched by a Team A player. 2-11-5 defines blocking a kick as an instance of touching, so in this case, A may advance the ball. With no foul, A’s touchdown counts, and a two-point try must follow.

If B38 punches A22 and throws him to the ground as A12 enters the end zone – given the discussion on philosophy, unless it was clearly after the play, this should be ruled a live ball foul.  A will decline, and will attempt the try from the 1.5 yard line.  If it were dead ball, A can enforce the penalty on the try, or succeeding spot for B’s possession – instead of the 25, it would be the 40.

Hopefully that’s right.  If not, work me through what I missed.

[CosmoKramer]

In the first two scenarios, it would have to be clearly after the ball was dead for me to make it a dead ball foul in this situation. And I know that is not the approved philosophy, but in the interest of crew credibility (and that of officiating in general), I would want it to be a live ball foul so we could enforce it. It would kill our credibility to throw a flag for a punch and then wave it off and leave the field unless it was obviously after the play. If you did rule it a live ball foul, B’s PF and A’s illegal procedure would offset and the try would be replayed. If you judged it to be a dead ball foul, A’s illegal procedure includes loss of down thus ending the game and the punch by B technically occurs after the game and is thus not in our jurisdiction.

In the third play, the ball is dead as soon as the kick is blocked and is obviously unsuccessful. Anything that happens after that is after the game and not our jurisdiction.

But let’s look at a similar situation. Instead of trailing, the teams are tied in the second possession series of the second OT. Team A attempts a field goal that is blocked and stays behind the neutral zone. Holder A12 picks up the loose ball and runs across the goal line. Give a ruling with and without the punch from B38.

For the third play my assumption was this was a FG attempt and not a try.  A blocked FG is not dead.  It's only a dead ball when the kick is obviously no good or Team B gains possession.