"WHAT A GREAT RULE...can we do that, too ?"

[Ralph Damren]

Last weekend the University of Maine beat Merrimack college 31-26. In so doing, they set a NCAA record by blocking 2 PAT kicks and returning them for 2 point defensive conversions. It is said that's the first time a team has scored TWO defensive conversions in the same game in NCAA history.

Yesterday my phone began to ring. Coaches, sportswriters, and just little ole' football fans were wanting to know why we shouldn't be able to do that in high school, too.....

[/WHAT SAY YOU ??

                                    b]

[HLinNC]

It's a whole lot easier to cover a 100 yd. field with 7-8 officials than 5 or even 4.  The NFHS has the statistics.  We are an aging, shrinking work force. 

I've said it here before- just because the NCAA does it doesn't mean when they fart it smells like a rainbow.   Pass this and then they'll demand the Fed allow kick returns from R's end zones.  It will never end.

[refjeff]

Blocked field goals and punts are live.   Why are blocked PAT kicks dead?

Any player fast enough not to get run down and tackled by K will not be caught by most officials either.

We had what would have been a Pick-2 last night.  That would be another change.

[ncwingman]

The high school kicking game is fraught with errors and mistakes. The try is in no way a sure thing for most schools like it is in college or the pros, and it's really more of a bonus round for the scoring team rather than the automatic extra point. If you allow the defense to score on a try, you're going to turn every attempt into a rushing block attempt full of roughing penalties, reverse mechanics, illegal blocks and horse collar tackles.

You have to consider skill level of the players, and realize you're going to incentivize a bunch of broken plays that increase the chance of injuries on untimed downs. You'll either get a ton of 6-2 scores or a ton of 6-0 scores with unnecessary 70 yard returns followed by a tackle from behind.

My vote is a solid no. It's not broken. Don't fix it.

[Derek Teigen]

my vote would also be no.  The PAT is a good way to develop the kicking game without negative consequences for K (other than a miss).

[KWH]

The biggest issue with a blocked extra point being dead is the fact that blocked Field Goals remain live.
More often than not someone blows an IW on a blocked field goal and by rule we need to replay the down.
A wise man from the State of Maine once proposed a middle of the road rule change that allowed a blocked PAT to remain live but only until R recovered!
This simple change would solve the IW's you have all seen on a Field Goal to win the state championship! (So to speak)

Consider this play:
A Kick Try by K1 is blocked and,
a) is scooped up by K2 and advanced into R's end zone
b) is scooped up by K2 who throws a forward pass which is caught by K3 in R's end zone.
c) is scooped up by K2 who drop kicks the ball thru the goal
d) is scooped up by K2 who is then tackled on the R-2 yard line
e) is scooped up by R6 who attempts to advance.

RULING: In a) and b) Award K 2-points, in c) award K 1-point, in d) and e) the Try is unsuccessful

Any thoughts on this potential change???

[GA Umpire]

My vote is a solid no. It's not broken. Don't fix it.

I agree.   

[Ralph Damren]

The biggest issue with a blocked extra point being dead is the fact that blocked Field Goals remain live.
More often than not someone blows an IW on a blocked field goal and by rule we need to replay the down.
A wise man from the State of Maine once proposed a middle of the road rule change that allowed a blocked PAT to remain live but only until R recovered!
This simple change would solve the IW's you have all seen on a Field Goal to win the state championship! (So to speak)

Consider this play:
A Kick Try by K1 is blocked and,
a) is scooped up by K2 and advanced into R's end zone
b) is scooped up by K2 who throws a forward pass which is caught by K3 in R's end zone.
c) is scooped up by K2 who drop kicks the ball thru the goal
d) is scooped up by K2 who is then tackled on the R-2 yard line
e) is scooped up by R6 who attempts to advance.

RULING: In a) and b) Award K 2-points, in c) award K 1-point, in d) and e) the Try is unsuccessful

Any thoughts on this potential change???

GEE, I'd vote for that. After all , a bad snap that sails over the head of the holder and kicker remains in play until R gains possession 

VOTES NEEDED TO PASS :
 
 
 

                                                                 

[CalhounLJ]

The biggest issue with a blocked extra point being dead is the fact that blocked Field Goals remain live.
More often than not someone blows an IW on a blocked field goal and by rule we need to replay the down.
A wise man from the State of Maine once proposed a middle of the road rule change that allowed a blocked PAT to remain live but only until R recovered!
This simple change would solve the IW's you have all seen on a Field Goal to win the state championship! (So to speak)

Consider this play:
A Kick Try by K1 is blocked and,
a) is scooped up by K2 and advanced into R's end zone
b) is scooped up by K2 who throws a forward pass which is caught by K3 in R's end zone.
c) is scooped up by K2 who drop kicks the ball thru the goal
d) is scooped up by K2 who is then tackled on the R-2 yard line
e) is scooped up by R6 who attempts to advance.

RULING: In a) and b) Award K 2-points, in c) award K 1-point, in d) and e) the Try is unsuccessful

Any thoughts on this potential change???

I’m not sure this would solve the IW issue in (e). I can see a scenario where we might be tempted to blow it on a blocked field goal behind the los. R CAN scoop and score on a blocked field goal.


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[Ralph Damren]

Several years ago Oregon ran the two point defensive conversion as an experimental rule. They had an excellent presentation at the rules meeting that included a video of a state championship game where a team trailing 19-0 blocked a PAT kick and returned it 99 yards for two. Their teammates and fans went wild  with excitement  as if they had just won the Super Bowl !! Many voters were moved. I was selfish and was moved more by the poor white hat  that was also trying to make the same journey AND had make a return journey for the following kickoff  .

Before the advent of the 2-point conversion in 1969, the PAT was always referred to as 'the extra point'. Sort of a bonus for scoring a touchdown and no chance of the scored upon team of scoring anything. One could compare it to a penalty shot in ice-hockey, of allowing the goalie after making a save, to fire the puck the length of the ice and score one for his team.

While it is an exciting play and exciting plays help to sell tickets and gain media coverage, my selfish vote was.....

                                             NO !!!
PS : THE RULE PASSAGE FAILED BY ONE VOTE 

[Ralph Damren]

I’m not sure this would solve the IW issue in (e). I can see a scenario where we might be tempted to blow it on a blocked field goal behind the los. R CAN scoop and score on a blocked field goal.
Good point, Calhoun, we stress to our guys that if they are faced with "..to blow or not to blow" DON'T  .It's much easier to bring a play back and add time to the clock  than to handle an IW 
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[CalhounLJ]

Yes. We have that conversation every time there is either a PAT or a Field goal. If it's field goal, every one of my guys are on the radio "Remember, ball is live!"   FWIW, I would much rather have R run a blocked extra point back and then fix it later than to blow it dead if R is running a blocked field goal back, because that can't be fixed...

[bossman72]

The only problem with this rule change is penalty enforcement.  What do you do with fouls after the change of possession?  Declined by rule and cancel the score like NCAA?  Enforce on kickoff?  Enforce like a normal down, but if B ends up with the ball after enforcement, the try is over?

Example:  During the return, B blocks in the back.  To save the touchdown, A horse collar's the runner.  What do we do with these?
Example:  Same play, but only the horse collar occurs.  What do we do?

Side note: related to KWH's post - I always thought it was dumb we blow dead extra points when the kick fails but not field goals.  Why the inconsistency?  My only guess would be that B wasn't allowed to pick up that blocked kick and run with it, so therefore A shouldn't be allowed either.  But, there has to be a reason/rationale for the inconsistency.

All you would have to do for a rule change is delete 8-3-2b.  I'd vote for it, assuming we find out why the rule is the way it is now.

[Ralph Damren]

AFTER FURTHER REVIEW BY THE REPLAY OFFICIAL ....

At bossman's suggestion, I went to my resource on detailed rule changes that go back to 1946 on when 4-2-2i (dead ball and end of down..During a try if B secures possession OR AS SOON AS IT IS APPARENT THAT A KICK HAS FAILED TO SCORE) may have been tweaked. Not finding any reference of changes, I surmise it has been just part of the " if the offense turns the ball over OR misses the kick" intent in ending the try. IMHO, all we would have to do is to shorten said rule to : During a try if B secures possession. This would allow K to recover a blocked kick behind the LOS and try for two. They can now if a bad snap blew their kick chances.

Regarding fouls during B/R's attempt for a defensive conversion, I had heard that something along these lines occurred in a NCAA game...
(1) PAT kick blocked;
(2) R1 picks up ball and off to paydirt;
(3) Kicker pulls off helmet and hurls it at R1;
(4) R1 trips over helmet and falls;
(5) White hat announces : "...Nothing to see here,folks, let's move on to the kickoff"...or something there such.

While I assume NCAA code has something similar to our 9-9-1 and could award a score; allowing illegal acts to go unpunished is not part of NFHS belief.
  ….now it's time for some lobster chowder 

[Derek Teigen]

then there is the 'one point safety' if the defense brings the ball into their owns endzone and is tackled.   

[Derek Teigen]

hey guys.  I am pasting a link to a website https://fieldsoffriendlystrife.com/2021/04/11/a-brief-history-of-footballs-extra-point/ that talks about the history of the conversion in football.  It was written by Tim Brown who has published a couple of books How Football Became Football and Fields of Friendly Strife.  I think I'm going to buy them.

He takes us from the prehistoric days when a point after touchdown was worth 4 points and the touchdown was worth only 2 points.  Little by little the value of the touchdowns increased to its present day 6 and the value of the try was reduced to 1 or 2.  In the olden days the try was actually a free kick.  In 1922 the rules were such that a try was from the 5 yard line and it could be a drop kick, a place kick, a pass or a run with all of them being contested.  If the offense was penalized during the try they lost the point and if the defense was penalized K got a point.

I like that idea of giving an automatic 1 point if defense is penalized.  That might avoid all of these encroachment penalties that delay the game and force so many re-kicks.

[Ralph Damren]

then there is the 'one point safety' if the defense brings the ball into their owns endzone and is tackled.   

This would not apply to a blocked or partially blocked PAT kick as it would remain a kick even after several muffs until it reached the end zone. This rare event could only occur if the loose ball was nearly at rest OR bouncing away from the goal line when B muffs the ball and it goes in/out of end zone and recovered by B. Good point, Derek, and let me know if the mentioned books are worth it.

[Derek Teigen]

I was thinking if the rules were changed to allow B to score on a try.  IF the kick were blocked and B picked up the ball and ran into their own endzone and was tackled there (probably to avoid K tacklers) then it would be a safety.  I think the safety should equal the point bonus (1 for a kick attempt and 2 for a run or pass into the endzone).  Does that make sense?

[HLinNC]

One major difference between the PAT and FG is the game clock is running on a FG.    We're going to let B score 2 points and 0:00 comes off the clock?  That's a bit too much benefit for B for my book.

As I stated earlier, this works a lot better with 7-8 officials at the college level.  Plus in NFHS we're going to have 2 of our 5 back on the end line so that's only 3 truly covering back upfield on the breakaway.

[Derek Teigen]

What would you think about this idea?  Objective:  reduce injuries; increase interest; increase participation; respect the heritage of the game

go back to the roots of the game and make the try a rugby style drop kick from wherever they scored the touchdown.  if touchdown is scored from left side, center or right side of the field.  The drop kick would be uncontested from the appropriate hash or center and in viewing the old photo of the drop kick try it would be from the 10 yard line.  It would be exciting, and would need a lot of skill.  The drop kick try would be worth 3 points and would be an option to the current pat rules.

I would imagine thousands of kids running to the football field to try and perfect their drop kick technique and coaches certainly encouraging it.  I think fans would find it interesting as well and it returns the game to the way it was played in the beginning. 

[CalhounLJ]

Naw I think we’re good. Like I read earlier, don’t spend energy trying to fix something that isn’t broken.


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[bama_stripes]

I can see a number of coverage problems on an XP return by R using a 5-man crew. I don’t think it’s worth it, especially considering the rarity of the play.

And, FWIW, I haven’t heard any cry or uproar from our coaches advocating for such a change.

[KWH]

I have always had a problem with,
On a two point Try the QB has a huge advantage in that, rather than take a sack, if he has no one to throw to, he can simply throw the ball up for grabs.
Why ?

Because absolutely nothing bad can happen!
 

[HLinNC]

Because absolutely nothing bad can happen!

He gets 0 more points instead of 2, coach could have had 1.

[Ralph Damren]

I can see a number of coverage problems on an XP return by R using a 5-man crew. I don’t think it’s worth it, especially considering the rarity of the play.

And, FWIW, I haven’t heard any cry or uproar from our coaches advocating for such a change.

Just give 'er time , 'Bama, until the Crimson Tide win a game on a defensive conversion  . Your high school coaches will want to do that, too  ,,,,,,,WHOOPS, that's right, the Tide usually win by 50r more 

If UMaine had lost by such a play, I'm sure my phone would have remained silent .