Elvislives - Thoughts on Illegal Man Downfield

[jra104]

Thoughts on how the LJ and H lose the big guy on two big pass plays. 
https://youtu.be/uAwkEus96to

https://youtu.be/2jGoMFsl38U

[ElvisLives]

Not making excuses, here, as both 'suspects' are 5 yards or more downfield when the pass is released, well beyond any "tolerance" that is accepted. But the 'reason' #65 maroon got lost was because the action was totally away from him. He wasn't anywhere close to engaging anybody, or impacting the action in any way. #71 gets lost because he is a guard, and his 'block' on the opponent is very weak, having little, if any impact on the primary action.
That's the 'how.'
Should these have been called? Officially, yes. This isn't FBS/FCS football, but, at those levels, those guys are expected to make these calls, even when they have no impact on the action. Those guys can make such calls without reservation, because they aren't at all concerned with getting - or not getting - further assignments from those teams. TASO guys should make these calls, too. We direct our guys to make these calls. But they are human, and they know that Coach X may get upset that they called an IDP on his guy that was 40 yards from the action, and not even close to engaging anybody - taking away a big play - and just might 'scratch' him - or the entire crew - from further assignments. As a result, calls (any type of call, not just IDP) that you might see consistently in FBS/FCS may not get called - at least not consistently - in UIL football.
When the day comes that the competing institutions have no direct input on the assignment of officials to their games, we can make great strides in improving the consistency of our guys.

Having said all of that, I will say that the coordinator I had during my FBS days would most likely have preferred that we not make a call on #65. He would have supported a call, to the coaches, but he would have supported - and preferred - a no-call. He would have absolutely expected a call on #71.

Please note that these are my opinions and comments, solely. I do not speak for TASO. TASO executives may, or may not, concur with my opinions and comments. But, I have been around the block a time or two.

[jra104]

Makes sense.  And I agree, the fact that the coaches get to pick crews and not just go with who is randomly is assigned is crazy.  Also for playoffs you get to chose 7 vs 5 man crews, should be standard 7 man crews for playoffs. 

[ElvisLives]

Also for playoffs you get to chose 7 vs 5 man crews, should be standard 7 man crews for playoffs.

Not necessarily. Not many chapters have exclusively crews of 7. That is due to 2 things: 1) available officials, 2) team/district preferences for crew size (and what they are willing to pay). Mechanics for crews of 7 are different than for crews of 5, and, to make crews of 7 worthwhile, they need to 1) KNOW those mechanics thoroughly, and 2) get substantial experience in working in that crew size. It isn't simply adding a couple of more guys deep on the sidelines. Receiver keys are very different, and it takes a lot of practice, and video review, to make sure we don't have guys looking at the same receivers before the ball is thrown, in particular. Heck, in many, many cases, we discover that they really aren't looking at ANY 'key' receiver - they are watching the play, as a whole,' develop, and that ain't what we need. Coordination on forward progress is also an issue. Without training and experience, we have deep guys just casually moving down the sideline, when in fact, they need to be backpedaling hard, or turning and running, to stay well in advance of receivers and/or ball carriers. They are NOT to take progress until the BC gets to the 2 yard line - otherwise, progress stays with the short wing officials. When they don't hustle, we end up with officials right on top of each other, and/or with the deep wing trying to take progress, when they should be some 10 yards downfield, observing action ahead of the BC, etc.
With crews of 7, we have a greater opportunity to get the the number of ball persons needed - and prescribed by the UIL as well as TASO - to work a really efficient game, so ball handling becomes another issue that requires training and practice. This, in particular, can really mess up the flow of the game, with inexperienced folks.
There are many more things. But the point is: unless I get some deep guys that I know have a lot of experience with a crew of 7, I'd rather stick with my regular crew of 5.
The shortage of officials is really hurting a lot of chapters in having more games with crews of 7. My crew has had two assignments, so far, that were supposed to have crews of 7 (as initially requested by the contestants), but all available officials have had to be assigned to other games, just to be sure we have 5 at as many games as possible, with some assignments only getting 4 guys, nonetheless. So, we work with our 'base' 5. We are OK with that. Would love to have a full-time crew of 7. But, very part time can be counter-productive.

[Joe Stack]

as both 'suspects' are 5 yards or more downfield when the pass is released

Before we continue, what is the rule?

[Covid 22]

How can you say with a straight face that this is your opinion and not a TASO statement.   YOU are a TASO training guru.  You are an ex-FBS official that is considered one of the top R's in the state and you do everything in your responses to teach proper rule interpretation and mechanics implementation.

Tell it the way it is.   The U's mechanics were horrible.  He was 8 yards deep at the snap and 8 yards deep at the end of the play.   He shuffled 2 or 3 feet from his original position.   He was ball watching and never appeared to check his primary player responsibility.   I am sure that he is a great guy and outstanding official based on the level of game he was in but on both these plays, it was not done well at all.

[ElvisLives]

Before we continue, what is the rule?

"When the passed is released" is the bench mark - by rule - that determines when an IDP foul has occurred. Originally ineligible players can freely and legally move more than 3 yards downfield after the legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone has been released. Obviously, there if no foul if there is no pass thrown, or if the pass does not cross the neutral zone. But, if an originally ineligible player is, or has been, more than three yards beyond the NZ at the moment the pass is released, that is a foul for ineligible downfield (IDP). (Note: Virtually all of our foul codes originated in the NFL. IDP stands for "Ineligible Downfield on a P (Pass - sorry, the 'censor' objected to the last three letters of the word after I underlined the first character) play, which is/was distinguished from IDK -  Ineligible Downfield on a Kick play. I am not sure if they even have that foul, any longer. We've never had any such foul.)

Now, be aware that there is an exception to that, by rule, that makes it 'no foul' if the passer is legally grounding the ball and it lands near or beyond the sideline. We might put a flag down, but, then discuss, and pick up the flag. Although nothing really wrong with that, really good officials will be patient, and see about the pass before deciding if a foul has occurred, or not, and then, if so, get a flag down. With TV games, this almost always leads to the comment, "And there's a late flag," which drives all of us bananas, because it is virtually always simply a case of a good official 'processing' the action, and throwing the flag when the action actually becomes a foul, or when he has had a chance to analyze everything he has seen, and then get the flag down, if warranted.

Have a good weekend.

[dammitbobby]

Not necessarily. Not many chapters have exclusively crews of 7. That is due to 2 things: 1) available officials, 2) team/district preferences for crew size (and what they are willing to pay). Mechanics for crews of 7 are different than for crews of 5, and, to make crews of 7 worthwhile, they need to 1) KNOW those mechanics thoroughly, and 2) get substantial experience in working in that crew size. It isn't simply adding a couple of more guys deep on the sidelines. Receiver keys are very different, and it takes a lot of practice, and video review, to make sure we don't have guys looking at the same receivers before the ball is thrown, in particular. Heck, in many, many cases, we discover that they really aren't looking at ANY 'key' receiver - they are watching the play, as a whole,' develop, and that ain't what we need. Coordination on forward progress is also an issue. Without training and experience, we have deep guys just casually moving down the sideline, when in fact, they need to be backpedaling hard, or turning and running, to stay well in advance of receivers and/or ball carriers. They are NOT to take progress until the BC gets to the 2 yard line - otherwise, progress stays with the short wing officials. When they don't hustle, we end up with officials right on top of each other, and/or with the deep wing trying to take progress, when they should be some 10 yards downfield, observing action ahead of the BC, etc.
With crews of 7, we have a greater opportunity to get the the number of ball persons needed - and prescribed by the UIL as well as TASO - to work a really efficient game, so ball handling becomes another issue that requires training and practice. This, in particular, can really mess up the flow of the game, with inexperienced folks.
There are many more things. But the point is: unless I get some deep guys that I know have a lot of experience with a crew of 7, I'd rather stick with my regular crew of 5.
The shortage of officials is really hurting a lot of chapters in having more games with crews of 7. My crew has had two assignments, so far, that were supposed to have crews of 7 (as initially requested by the contestants), but all available officials have had to be assigned to other games, just to be sure we have 5 at as many games as possible, with some assignments only getting 4 guys, nonetheless. So, we work with our 'base' 5. We are OK with that. Would love to have a full-time crew of 7. But, very part time can be counter-productive.

And for some chapters, such as mine, this becomes a chicken and egg problem.  We can't convince schools to go to 7 man, because we don't have the personnel to support it.  And by your logic, we should never be considered for 7-man crew playoff assignments, because we can't consistently get 7-man assignments, even for our 5 and 6A schools, in the regular season. (Although - this year is the first year we have pretty much told them 'we're bringing 7' and so far I don't think they've objected.)  That said - we're talking about 1 6A and two 5A school in our area, and the rest are below that.  And while we don't use crews, I believe those teams when playing at home, are getting consistent crews, not entirely sure.  But if we don't go to 7-man crews for all playoff assignments, we're never going to be able to get there in the season.=, and we're never going to have the depth that we need to be able to have quality officials, at all positions, and it severely limits the opportunities to move up to different levels, never having worked a 7-man crew.

Just my .02 and change.

[ElvisLives]

How can you say with a straight face that this is your opinion and not a TASO statement.   YOU are a TASO training guru.  You are an ex-FBS official that is considered one of the top R's in the state and you do everything in your responses to teach proper rule interpretation and mechanics implementation.

Tell it the way it is.   The U's mechanics were horrible.  He was 8 yards deep at the snap and 8 yards deep at the end of the play.   He shuffled 2 or 3 feet from his original position.   He was ball watching and never appeared to check his primary player responsibility.   I am sure that he is a great guy and outstanding official based on the level of game he was in but on both these plays, it was not done well at all.

While I have been a clinician for TASO in the past several years, that does not mean that I speak for TASO. I am neither an employee of TASO, nor in any elected position outside of my Chapter. Training materials used by me during clinics are carefully vetted by TASO authorities (jn fact, much of the material is actually provided by TASO). This website is not associated with TASO in any way, so any information offered through this website is unofficial, with respect to TASO. They may agree 100%, but such information is still not official, unless it is presented directly by TASO through one if its information dissemination methods (direct e-mail, the TASO website, an official TASO clinic, or their newsletter).

On this website, I do not speak for TASO. I simply offer what knowledge and experience I have, for what it is worth.

[Clear Lake ref]

How can you say with a straight face that this is your opinion and not a TASO statement.   YOU are a TASO training guru.  You are an ex-FBS official that is considered one of the top R's in the state and you do everything in your responses to teach proper rule interpretation and mechanics implementation.

Tell it the way it is.   The U's mechanics were horrible.  He was 8 yards deep at the snap and 8 yards deep at the end of the play.   He shuffled 2 or 3 feet from his original position.   He was ball watching and never appeared to check his primary player responsibility.   I am sure that he is a great guy and outstanding official based on the level of game he was in but on both these plays, it was not done well at all.

No excuse for losing them, but where should the U have gone?

[Covid 22]

Assuming no mechanic changes since last year.

Once a U sees pass blocking, he should move forward (preferably 5 yards).   This puts him in position to view the blockers as they form the pocket.   When the pass is released, he can then look to see if any linemen are beyond him. Since he should be three yards from the original LOS, any lineman past him would be illegally downfield.   

I watched parts of several college games this weekend and with the larger crews, the Umpires stayed at their 8 yard position.  Maybe this has been modified for 7 man mechanics by TASO.   Either way he was ball watching and not paying attention to his area.

[TxSkyBolt]

Assuming no mechanic changes since last year.

Once a U sees pass blocking, he should move forward (preferably 5 yards).   This puts him in position to view the blockers as they form the pocket.   When the pass is released, he can then look to see if any linemen are beyond him. Since he should be three yards from the original LOS, any lineman past him would be illegally downfield.   

I watched parts of several college games this weekend and with the larger crews, the Umpires stayed at their 8 yard position.  Maybe this has been modified for 7 man mechanics by TASO.   Either way he was ball watching and not paying attention to his area.

Umpires are to turn on pass plays. Not an excuse for missing the IDP (wing official is primary now for the by the way) but he is supposed to turn on the pass


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[NVFOA_Ump]

Related question here.  In video #1 when the ball actually leaves the hand of the QB the A receiver who has been beyond the NZ ultimately catches the pass when he is is not beyond the NZ (he has come back to the QB who is scrambling for his life).  Does that matter under current NCAA rules in conjunction with IDP?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[TxSkyBolt]

Related question here.  In video #1 when the ball actually leaves the hand of the QB the A receiver who has been beyond the NZ ultimately catches the pass when he is is not beyond the NZ (he has come back to the QB who is scrambling for his life).  Does that matter under current NCAA rules in conjunction with IDP?

Ball is snapped at the A39 and caught at the A35.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

Ball is snapped at the A39 and caught at the A35.
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Agreed but when the ball leaves the hand of the QB the receiver is at the A39.  Is the "key" where it is caught or where the receiver was when the ball left the QB's hand.

[ElvisLives]

Agreed but when the ball leaves the hand of the QB the receiver is at the A39.  Is the "key" where it is caught or where the receiver was when the ball left the QB's hand.

Where an originally eligible Team A player has been is of no consequence. If the legal forward pass crosses the NZ, then originally ineligible Team A players shall not be, OR HAVE BEEN, more than 3 yards beyond the NZ at the moment the pass is released. The ball crosses the NZ if it - the ball - is across the NZ when the pass is first touched (by any player, or an official).

[NVFOA_Ump]

The point that I'm making here is that from the time the ball left the QB's hand until the time it was caught A player(s) went as much as another 5 yards downfield.  If the U is responsible (or one of those responsible) for IDP he has to watch the ball enough to know when it left the passer's hand.

[ElvisLives]

The point that I'm making here is that from the time the ball left the QB's hand until the time it was caught A player(s) went as much as another 5 yards downfield.  If the U is responsible (or one of those responsible) for IDP he has to watch the ball enough to know when it left the passer's hand.

And not always easy to do. Sometimes that may be with his peripheral vision. But, mostly, just frequently checking the passer and then getting back to his area of responsibility. That's one of the reasons that IDP has become more of a responsibility of the wings.