Encroachment

[Derek Teigen]

have been thinking about this for some time.  B player is lining up in a 3 point stance in the neutral zone and A is calling signals and B players moves backs out of  the neutral zone before the snap.  I got nothing.

B momentarily jumps across the neutral zone and returns immediately to his 3 point stance.  No player on A reacts.  Still got nothing?

[GA Umpire]

have been thinking about this for some time.  B player is lining up in a 3 point stance in the neutral zone and A is calling signals and B players moves backs out of  the neutral zone before the snap.  I got nothing.

B momentarily jumps across the neutral zone and returns immediately to his 3 point stance.  No player on A reacts.  Still got nothing?

Per 7-1-5 & 7-1-6, no one shall encroach after the ready.
By rule, you have encroachment in both cases.

[Ralph Damren]

In some other codes OR if you were regressed back prior to 1976, you would be correct. 7-1-1 restricted that in 1976 to today's encroachment rule. I was a wide-eyed wingman  back then , as to me, it was always a tough read if the O-lineman flinched before the D-lineman encroached. The following year the NFHS changed to dead-ball encroachment of free kicks (6-1-3).

[NVFOA_Ump]

RULE 2 - SECTION 8 ENCROACHMENT

Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked as in 6-1-3a or 6-1-3b. For the purposes of enforcing encroachment restrictions, an entering substitute is not considered to be a player until he is on his team’s side of the neutral zone. Encroachment also occurs when a player violates the free kick restrictions as in 6-1-4.

As always when we have a question we need to start with the definitions in Rule 2.  Also in the penalty statements for 6-1-3a, 6-1-3b, and 6-1-4 the 1st official signal is S-7 (Dead Ball signal) indicating that this is a blow-and-throw foul.

[Derek Teigen]

In some other codes OR if you were regressed back prior to 1976, you would be correct. 7-1-1 restricted that in 1976 to today's encroachment rule. I was a wide-eyed wingman  back then , as to me, it was always a tough read if the O-lineman flinched before the D-lineman encroached. The following year the NFHS changed to dead-ball encroachment of free kicks (6-1-3).

That is very interesting.  By the rule I know that both scenarios I posted are encroachment and so I am guilty of not applying the rule uniformly.  The lining up in the neutral zone for me is a 'talking to' with my umpire to help them clean up their lines.  Repeated offenses draw a penalty.  The small jump across the line that barely penetrates the neutral zone and causes no reaction I ignore.  The bigger incursion often with a reaction by A cannot be ignored.  BUT there are problems with my approach and I think I have to adjust.

I felt badly that early in one game I let slide on the very first play a defensive end who had lined up in the neutral zone. He gained an advantage and got to the runner in the backfield.  If he had caused a fumble I would have been a contributing factor!  In another game I let go a very small jump across the line and the coach got in my ear about how come I called an encroachment on his team when I ignored his opponents!

I am interested in how other wings handle encroachments.  I am beginning to overthink this and trying to balance less flags and letting the kids play with applying the rule uniformly.

[CalhounLJ]

have been thinking about this for some time.  B player is lining up in a 3 point stance in the neutral zone and A is calling signals and B players moves backs out of  the neutral zone before the snap.  I got nothing.
Officiate this as preventative as possible. As the teams are lining up, talk to them and motion to them and try to get them lined up correctly as much as possible. Once they are set, then officiate it. If either encroach, flag it. Every time.

B momentarily jumps across the neutral zone and returns immediately to his 3 point stance.  No player on A reacts.  Still got nothing?

In the second situation, whether A reacts is not a factor. B has fouled. Flag it. Every time.

[Bubba Ump]

One of my "Umpire Pet Peeves" is the flanks repeatedly trying to get me to back up a offensive or defensive lineman.  I'll do it once and I'll make it loud.  If they don't get the message then tell the coaches right behind you.  If that doesn't work, please flag it.  (on first and 10) That works every time. 

[NVFOA_Ump]

Depending on the level of play involved a single admonition to get back out of the neutral zone IMHO is OK provided that the snap is not imminent. After that simply flag it.  From my experience a flag is a far more efficient learning tool in this particular case.

[dch]

As a white hat and HL, I fully agree with the two previous posts from Umps.  It is not the Umpire's job to clean-up alignment on the line of scrimmage.

[Derek Teigen]

thanks for the great feedback that I intend to use for my games this week.  My goals are to be more consistent and flag it every time.  I can't risk letting it go even once and then that player that was encroaching do something that could change the game even if it is only the first play of the game.  If its borderline I will ask my Umpire (once) to help me clean up the lines because he is in the best position to speak to them.   As a wing I am too far away to communicate this.  Same goes for offensive lines whose tackles and ends behind the line and in the backfield.

[HLinNC]

Depends somewhat on the level of play- JV, MS- many of those kids are in la-la land more often than not.  Some don't even know what number they're wearing, especially early in the year.  If the snap is imminent though, you need to flag it.

Varsity play comes with tighter expectations.  If it is an interior lineman, it's usually going to be hard for me to get them to scoot back so they're probably going to get the flag.

[AlUpstateNY]

Depends somewhat on the level of play- JV, MS- many of those kids are in la-la land more often than not.  Some don't even know what number they're wearing, especially early in the year.  If the snap is imminent though, you need to flag it.

Varsity play comes with tighter expectations.  If it is an interior lineman, it's usually going to be hard for me to get them to scoot back so they're probably going to get the flag.

FWIW, and it doesn't work ALL the time, but it does, a lot.  Before the snap, as loud as the situation dictates, a general, non-specific warning , "Look down the line" consistently generates corrective movement that eliminates a lot of needless fouls.

It also serves to alert any Coaches, looking over your shoulder, that you at least attempted "corrective officiating" to try and avoid problems, and serves to "reduce" needless comments (not always, but a lot)..

[Derek Teigen]

FWIW, and it doesn't work ALL the time, but it does, a lot.  Before the snap, as loud as the situation dictates, a general, non-specific warning , "Look down the line" consistently generates corrective movement that eliminates a lot of needless fouls.

It also serves to alert any Coaches, looking over your shoulder, that you at least attempted "corrective officiating" to try and avoid problems, and serves to "reduce" needless comments (not always, but a lot)..

that's really good stuff.  thank you!

[bossman72]

have been thinking about this for some time.  B player is lining up in a 3 point stance in the neutral zone and A is calling signals and B players moves backs out of  the neutral zone before the snap.  I got nothing.

B momentarily jumps across the neutral zone and returns immediately to his 3 point stance.  No player on A reacts.  Still got nothing?

By rule, both are encroachment.

This philosophy has worked well for me.  If defenders are lined up in the NZ, I usually give them the opportunity to back up out of there before the snap.  If they're not out of there before they snap it, shut it down and flag it.
If defenders ever jump into the NZ, flag it every time.

[HLinNC]

 

If they're not out of there before they snap it, shut it down and flag it.
If defenders ever jump into the NZ, flag it every time.

 

[Derek Teigen]

By rule, both are encroachment.

This philosophy has worked well for me.  If defenders are lined up in the NZ, I usually give them the opportunity to back up out of there before the snap.  If they're not out of there before they snap it, shut it down and flag it.
If defenders ever jump into the NZ, flag it every time.

ok...I like that philosophy and that brings me back to my very original post on which has me questioning why do some of us (me and you included) allow (not by rule but by philosophy) someone who might have originally lined up in the neutral zone to back up out of the neutral zone before the snap but not allow a player to back up out of the neutral zone before the snap if he 'jumps' into it.

We should look at this in terms of advantage-disadvantage.  If a player lines up in the neutral zone I agree we should allow him the opportunity to back up out of it before the snap otherwise if he remains he has an advantage.  If a player jumps into the neutral zone but then returns to his stance did he cause A to move?  What advantage has been gained by B if A has not moved?

AlupstateNY gave me a good tip to yell as loud as is needed "LOOK DOWN THE LINE" if players are lining up in the neutral zone.  I will use that.  I want to give players the opportunity to return to a legal position to avoid a flag.  The jump into the neutral zone has been a challenge for me because sometimes I would flag it and other times I would not depending on the size of the encroachment or the game situation and that is not a good approach because I am not applying the rules of the game uniformly.   

[CalhounLJ]

ok...I like that philosophy and that brings me back to my very original post on which has me questioning why do some of us (me and you included) allow (not by rule but by philosophy) someone who might have originally lined up in the neutral zone to back up out of the neutral zone before the snap but not allow a player to back up out of the neutral zone before the snap if he 'jumps' into it.

We should look at this in terms of advantage-disadvantage.  If a player lines up in the neutral zone I agree we should allow him the opportunity to back up out of it before the snap otherwise if he remains he has an advantage.  If a player jumps into the neutral zone but then returns to his stance did he cause A to move?  What advantage has been gained by B if A has not moved?

AlupstateNY gave me a good tip to yell as loud as is needed "LOOK DOWN THE LINE" if players are lining up in the neutral zone.  I will use that.  I want to give players the opportunity to return to a legal position to avoid a flag.  The jump into the neutral zone has been a challenge for me because sometimes I would flag it and other times I would not depending on the size of the encroachment or the game situation and that is not a good approach because I am not applying the rules of the game uniformly.   

Flip the argument and answer this question - Do you still throw a flag on A for a false start if it doesn't cause B to encroach? If so, why? Has A gained an advantage?

Another question - Do you still throw an illegal formation if A has 5 in the backfield at the snap even if they run the ball? If so, why? Has A gained an advantage?

The point is that while advantage/disadvantage is certainly important in determining whether to throw a flag or not, it's not the end-all be-all. There are certain fouls, including the ones mentioned above, that are acceptable to call every time they occur, mainly to make sure we keep the game orderly and consistent.

[Derek Teigen]

Flip the argument and answer this question - Do you still throw a flag on A for a false start if it doesn't cause B to encroach?

Good point but A knows the snap count so they should get flagged for every false start.  A also tries to draw B to encroach with altered cadences.

Regarding illegal formation we do allow A to get into a legal formation before we flag that at the snap.

[CalhounLJ]

Good point but A knows the snap count so they should get flagged for every false start.  A also tries to draw B to encroach with altered cadences.
Yeah, but B has the ball to go by, so they should know not to encroach until the ball is snapped. This is a different argument altogether than advantage/disadvantage.

Regarding illegal formation we do allow A to get into a legal formation before we flag that at the snap. Yes but it's still a foul. Why? Because A has created a situation where they have more eligible receivers for the defense to cover on a pass. Should that matter on a running play? There's no advantage gained by A if the wideout who should be on the line is backed up two yards. Especially if the run is to the other side and he just stands there chicken fighting with the defender. The fact that there were 5 at the snap has absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the play. No advantage gained whatsoever.

[bossman72]

ok...I like that philosophy and that brings me back to my very original post on which has me questioning why do some of us (me and you included) allow (not by rule but by philosophy) someone who might have originally lined up in the neutral zone to back up out of the neutral zone before the snap but not allow a player to back up out of the neutral zone before the snap if he 'jumps' into it.

We should look at this in terms of advantage-disadvantage.  If a player lines up in the neutral zone I agree we should allow him the opportunity to back up out of it before the snap otherwise if he remains he has an advantage.  If a player jumps into the neutral zone but then returns to his stance did he cause A to move?  What advantage has been gained by B if A has not moved?

AlupstateNY gave me a good tip to yell as loud as is needed "LOOK DOWN THE LINE" if players are lining up in the neutral zone.  I will use that.  I want to give players the opportunity to return to a legal position to avoid a flag.  The jump into the neutral zone has been a challenge for me because sometimes I would flag it and other times I would not depending on the size of the encroachment or the game situation and that is not a good approach because I am not applying the rules of the game uniformly.   

Jumping into the NZ is obvious to everyone, so call it.

Lining up in the NZ is not obvious to everyone.  Let them correct it if they can.