Kicking Game

[Derek Teigen]

I wanted to ask if you could confirm my understanding of the following.

1.  On Free Kicks, any ball that crosses the end line is dead, even if R has muffed the ball several times  and K tries to recover but also muffs it into the endzone.  My simple rule of thumb is if the ball is never possessed force is not a factor on balls going into the endzone.

2.  On Scrimmage kicks the ball remains live in R's endzone.  It is a touchback for R no matter who supplies the force if the ball leaves the endzone out of the field of play.

thank you.

[CalhounLJ]

I wanted to ask if you could confirm my understanding of the following.

1.  On Free Kicks, any ball that crosses the end line is dead, even if R has muffed the ball several times  and K tries to recover but also muffs it into the endzone.  My simple rule of thumb is if the ball is never possessed force is not a factor on balls going into the endzone.

2.  On Scrimmage kicks the ball remains live in R's endzone.  It is a touchback for R no matter who supplies the force if the ball leaves the endzone out of the field of play.

thank you.

No on number two. A scrimmage kick is dead when it breaks the plane of R’s goal line.

On the force issue, remember force is NOT a factor in kicks going into R’s end zone but IS a factor in kicks going into K end zone. Kicks going into K end zone are NOT dead. They remain live until dead by rule.


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[Derek Teigen]

No on number two. A scrimmage kick is dead when it breaks the plane of R’s goal line.

....even if the ball has been muffed by R? or touched by R as in a blocked field goal attempt?

[CalhounLJ]

....even if the ball has been muffed by R? or touched by R as in a blocked field goal attempt?

Yes. Muffing doesn’t equal possession and a kick remains a kick until it’s possessed or becomes dead by rule.

The only thing muffing does is allow K the opportunity to recover the kick in the field of play.

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[Derek Teigen]

ok Calhoun..thank you.

[Derek Teigen]

On the force issue, remember force is NOT a factor in kicks going into R’s end zone but IS a factor in kicks going into K end zone. Kicks going into K end zone are NOT dead. They remain live until dead by rule.
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ok... on scrimmage kicks that are blocked into and out of the endzone by R or a muff by k that causes the ball to cross over into their own endzone and then it is muffed out of the endzone by either R or K.....  Is this always a touchback with K now A retaining the ball?

[CalhounLJ]

ok... on scrimmage kicks that are blocked into and out of the endzone by R or a muff by k that causes the ball to cross over into their own endzone and then it is muffed out of the endzone by either R or K.....  Is this always a touchback with K now A retaining the ball?

1. If a kicked blocked by R becomes dead in K’s end zone with K in possession it’s a safety.
2. If a kick blocked by R is recovered by R in K’s end zone, it’s a touchdown.
3. If a kick blocked by R goes out of bounds in Ks end zone, it’s a safety. The initial force is the kick and a new force cannot be added to a kick in flight.
4. The only way K can get a touchback from a blocked kick is if the grounded ball in the field of play is muffed by R in such a way as to apply a new force. If the new force by R puts the ball in K’s end zone and K recovers or it becomes dead in there, K gets a touchback.


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[juxone]

Another question on the free kick..

6-1-4 Says:
ART. 4 . . . At the time the ball is kicked, at least four K players must be on each side of the kicker.  (Assuming ART-3 is met)  in the following diagram
 
K11  k10 K8 k7 k5,     K4, K3, K2 K1
                             
                            B
K3 is the kicker,  clearly, there are is 4 players on his left, HOWEVER, when K3 advances to Kick is his approach is at such an angle that is he between K5 and K4 at the time of the kick. This is legal, correct?

[CalhounLJ]

Not if he’s between 4 and 5. That would leave only 3 on the right side.


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[CalhounLJ]

It’s not complicated. There has to be 4 on each side of the kicker when he kicks the ball.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

It's been suggested that we focus on what happens at the instant the ball is kicked and at that instant when the kicker's foot strikes the ball there must be a minimum of 4 K players on either side of the ball.

[CalhounLJ]

It's been suggested that we focus on what happens at the instant the ball is kicked and at that instant when the kicker's foot strikes the ball there must be a minimum of 4 K players on either side of the ball.

I agree completely.


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[juxone]

It's been suggested that we focus on what happens at the instant the ball is kicked and at that instant when the kicker's foot strikes the ball there must be a minimum of 4 K players on either side of the ball.

That was the point of the question since says ART. 4 . . . At the time the ball is kicked, at least four K players must be on each side of the kicker. In the example shown at THE INSTANT is was kicked ART-4 was true, so no flag was thrown even though when they lined up there was  4 on each side PRIOR to the kick.

Had new coach and his team was being trounced severely--and fumed about it raised the question.

[CalhounLJ]

That was the point of the question since says ART. 4 . . . At the time the ball is kicked, at least four K players must be on each side of the kicker. In the example shown at THE INSTANT is was kicked ART-4 was true, so no flag was thrown even though when they lined up there was  4 on each side PRIOR to the kick.

Had new coach and his team was being trounced severely--and fumed about it raised the question.

Did you mean to say that when they lined up there was NOT 4 on each side prior to the kick?


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[juxone]

Did you mean to say that when they lined up there was NOT 4 on each side prior to the kick?


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In my message, I tried to portray that  see below

K11  k10 K8 k7 k5,     K4, K3, K2 K1
                             
                            B

when kicked K3 moved at an extreme at a sharp line so when he ACTUALLY kicked he was between K5 and K4
K11  k10 K8 k7 k5       K4, K3, K2 K1
                             
                            B

[CalhounLJ]

In my message, I tried to portray that  see below

K11  k10 K8 k7 k5,     K4, K3, K2 K1
                             
                            B

when kicked K3 moved at an extreme at a sharp line so when he ACTUALLY kicked he was between K5 and K4
K11  k10 K8 k7 k5       K4, K3, K2 K1
                             
                            B

Gotcha. But if you move K3 out of the situation and then put him between K5 and K4 if he’s the kicker then there’s still not enough on that side. You can’t count him. There has to be 4 other players on each side of him at the moment he kicks the ball.


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[Logical]

K11  k10 K8 k7 k5,     K4, K3, K2 K1
                             
                            B

You're only showing 9 players. Where are the other 2 K players

[HLinNC]

Had new coach and his team was being trounced severely--and fumed about it raised the question.

Doesn't change the rule nor make you wrong.  Learn to ignore it, go around it, or deal with it.

[juxone]

You're only showing 9 players. Where are the other 2 K players

Sorry just abbreviated the "K" my bad, they were all to the right side.  HOWEVER, I think CalhounLJ point is --- "on point", When K3 moved out of position there WAS NOT 4 players to the left of the kicker!!!    missed it.