5-Man Mechanics but with the Umpire in the offensive backfield

[KWH]

This mechanic was used in Idaho, parts of Washington and parts of Oregon with some positive success.
I am curious if other states used it also?

[bama_stripes]

So, who is responsible for IDF and IFPs?

[NVFOA_Ump]

So this was tried for 2020 during our abbreviated "Fall II" season here in MA but "after review" was abandoned for our regular 2021 season.  Specifically for the obvious shortcomings seen in reviewing film, some of which were IDF's and IDP's along with holding.

[bossman72]

I don't think we should change this.  Lots of good officials are of the huskier/immobile variety and we would be excluding them or forcing them out of officiating by moving the U into the backfield.

I know we don't like to do this for consistency's sake, but maybe leave it up to the individual umpire whether he wants to work in the traditional spot or in the backfield?

[KWH]

I don't think we should change this.  Lots of good officials are of the huskier/immobile variety and we would be excluding them or forcing them out of officiating by moving the U into the backfield.

I know we don't like to do this for consistency's sake, but maybe leave it up to the individual umpire whether he wants to work in the traditional spot or in the backfield?

This is an interesting dilemma. Those that like it are all gung ho for it. AND, those that hate it absolutely hate it.
I for one "was" absolutely against it, I hated it, didn't even want to talk about it. Then I saw it work.
No I have moved to the level of somewhat skeptical.

I totally understand the huskier/immobile variety and every jurisdiction has plenty of them. (They stay in tradition position)

Who is responsible for IDF and IFP's? (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Who is responsible for Backward/Forward Pass? (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Who is responsible for was the screen pass caught beyond or behind the LOS?  (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)


That being said, don't be surprised if/when an alternate mechanic surfaces. Discussion regarding alternate mechanics are happening and all the issues are being addressed.  Out here, the straw vote, out of those who have tried it is, roughly 75-25 for it. 

Again, there are those that will never try it and claim it is the stupidest thing ever to surface.  No problem.  But you might just want to take a second breath and see it actually working...



 

[NVFOA_Ump]

So with a 5 man crew are you saying that we limit the "downfield" officials to 2 with effectively 3 officials near or behind the NZ?  IMHO from our 2020 videos where we tried that it simply does not work with teams with pass dominant offenses.  That's a major mechanics change from the traditional with 1 official behind NZ, 1 official around the extended NZ, and 3 officials available for downfield passing coverage.  We saw too many plays on our videos where one of the wings was simply in no-man's land while trying to do both covering the U's "old" assignments and cover his "new" assignment(s).  Maybe it can work with 5 but it would require "less" downfield coverage that the current mechanic provides.  And it put that quick look-in pass where the U "helps out" with catch/no-catch with no inside help.

[KWH]

So with a 5 man crew are you saying that we limit the "downfield" officials to 2 with effectively 3 officials near or behind the NZ?  IMHO from our 2020 videos where we tried that it simply does not work with teams with pass dominant offenses.  That's a major mechanics change from the traditional with 1 official behind NZ, 1 official around the extended NZ, and 3 officials available for downfield passing coverage.  We saw too many plays on our videos where one of the wings was simply in no-man's land while trying to do both covering the U's "old" assignments and cover his "new" assignment(s).  Maybe it can work with 5 but it would require "less" downfield coverage that the current mechanic provides.  And it put that quick look-in pass where the U "helps out" with catch/no-catch with no inside help.

Thank you NVFOA Ump -  I agree with your observations and I will most certainly pass them on when we meet.

[bossman72]

This is an interesting dilemma. Those that like it are all gung ho for it. AND, those that hate it absolutely hate it.
I for one "was" absolutely against it, I hated it, didn't even want to talk about it. Then I saw it work.
No I have moved to the level of somewhat skeptical.

I totally understand the huskier/immobile variety and every jurisdiction has plenty of them. (They stay in tradition position)

Who is responsible for IDF and IFP's? (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Who is responsible for Backward/Forward Pass? (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Who is responsible for was the screen pass caught beyond or behind the LOS?  (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)


That being said, don't be surprised if/when an alternate mechanic surfaces. Discussion regarding alternate mechanics are happening and all the issues are being addressed.  Out here, the straw vote, out of those who have tried it is, roughly 75-25 for it. 

Again, there are those that will never try it and claim it is the stupidest thing ever to surface.  No problem.  But you might just want to take a second breath and see it actually working...



 

I think in a similar fashion of...
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
...
All officials can work the traditional umpire position, but not all officials can work the new umpire position.

If changing the mechanic based solely on personal preference affected the umpire only, then we would be ok.  However, as NVFOA_Ump mentioned, it's harder for the wings to pick up the U's old responsibilities.  Granted, the 3 things you listed should be the wings' primary responsibility all the time... there's just no backup.  The U is always secondary on the things you listed and if he's in the backfield, there is no secondary.  So I guess I kind of talked myself in a circle here where the wings should be taking all of the things you listed, so I do think U in the backfield based on personal preference could work.  Maybe we should adjust the LOS mechanics where the LJ holds the LOS and HL drifts with his key.  I think where the traditional 5 man mechanics where the wings take off down the field when they read pass might be tougher to get forward/backward pass, IDP, and pass caught behind/beyond. (I also think you have goal line mechanics from the 10 and in, correct)?

Keep in mind, these suggestions are from a person that's never worked 5 man mechanics in his life outside of arena football and one game where our SJ pulled a hamstring in high school.

[bama_stripes]

Who is responsible for IDF and IFP's? (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Who is responsible for Backward/Forward Pass? (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Who is responsible for was the screen pass caught beyond or behind the LOS?  (Obviously the remaining wing and/or both wings)

Sorry, but I just don’t see how this could work well in the modern game.  We’re seeing more & more 4/5 receiver sets that require both wings to be downfield.

[AlUpstateNY]

there's both "Good & Bad" in both "OLD & NEW".  One MAJOR benefit missing from moving the Umpire is the loss of preventive "peace keeping" in the trenches.  A SMART Umpire learns that he has a unique opportunity to impact behavior and keep things civil between BOTH "Infantry" forces.  Carefully chosen advice, whispered into specific "ear holes" can often "nip problems in the bud" preventing needless escalation and unnecessary problems from festering.

Umpires form UNIQUE relationships with infantry troops that other officials NEVER experience. Some wise people suggest, peacekeeping and prevention is an Umpire's biggest asset.

[Ralph Damren]

ADVANTAGE: UMP WON'T GET DUMPED AS OFTEN 

DISADVANTAGES ; WELL, YOU GUYS ARE FILLING IN THE BLANKS....

Been there, done that. It's much more relaxing watching the players running away from you, than at you.

[KWH]

I think in a similar fashion of...
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
...
All officials can work the traditional umpire position, but not all officials can work the new umpire position.

If changing the mechanic based solely on personal preference affected the umpire only, then we would be ok.  However, as NVFOA_Ump mentioned, it's harder for the wings to pick up the U's old responsibilities.  Granted, the 3 things you listed should be the wings' primary responsibility all the time... there's just no backup.  The U is always secondary on the things you listed and if he's in the backfield, there is no secondary.  So I guess I kind of talked myself in a circle here where the wings should be taking all of the things you listed, so I do think U in the backfield based on personal preference could work.  Maybe we should adjust the LOS mechanics where the LJ holds the LOS and HL drifts with his key.  I think where the traditional 5 man mechanics where the wings take off down the field when they read pass might be tougher to get forward/backward pass, IDP, and pass caught behind/beyond. (I also think you have goal line mechanics from the 10 and in, correct)?

Keep in mind, these suggestions are from a person that's never worked 5 man mechanics in his life outside of arena football and one game where our SJ pulled a hamstring in high school.

Thank you Bossman - I intend to share your thoughts with our committee.

[AlUpstateNY]

ADVANTAGE: UMP WON'T GET DUMPED AS OFTEN 

DISADVANTAGES ; WELL, YOU GUYS ARE FILLING IN THE BLANKS....

Been there, done that. It's much more relaxing watching the players running away from you, than at you.

True, and it would be a lot more "relaxing" for fire fighters to always stay OUTSIDE burning structures, although rescue efforts would likely suffer.  Like many challenging jobs, being an effective Umpire requires unique "special" skills, aptitude and attitude, that not everyone may be comfortable with.  Not every Umpire can be an effective BJ either.

[Bubba Ump]

I brought this suggestion up after last spring and my opinion has only gotten stronger..  Which is to err on the side of safety.  I just worked a regional and state final and the last time I'll be working as Umpire on the defensive side of the ball.  The regional final had one team that pounded the ball up the middle for 10 yards a pop.  That's a nightmare for umpires.  We love the 3 yard gain.  In the final I got clipped twice by very apologetic defensive backs on crossing routes.  Would have killed a lesser man.. Ha!  Jokes aside, 20 years of playoffs and I'm done in the middle.  Having a better look is not worth getting hurt, missing work and worse yet, having to cancel a tee time.  Change the mechanic and I'll gladly take a few more steps to be a presence in the middle.  .... Bubba Flank

[AlUpstateNY]

Experience as an Umpire can add excellent perspective and value to developing as a Referee.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I brought this suggestion up after last spring and my opinion has only gotten stronger..  Which is to err on the side of safety.  I just worked a regional and state final and the last time I'll be working as Umpire on the defensive side of the ball.  The regional final had one team that pounded the ball up the middle for 10 yards a pop.  That's a nightmare for umpires.  We love the 3 yard gain.  In the final I got clipped twice by very apologetic defensive backs on crossing routes.  Would have killed a lesser man.. Ha!  Jokes aside, 20 years of playoffs and I'm done in the middle.  Having a better look is not worth getting hurt, missing work and worse yet, having to cancel a tee time.  Change the mechanic and I'll gladly take a few more steps to be a presence in the middle.  .... Bubba Flank

I think that we can all agree that being on B's side of the ball puts us in a more vulnerable position but we are there for good reason.  From analyzing film with the U on A's side of the ball when using 4 or 5 man crews we see a huge void in responsibilities.  Also, as Al mentioned, "supervising" the boys at the point of attack also gets a bit lost, and in many games that is a key component of the job. IMHO being "where the action is" is not to be overlooked in relation to control of the game.

[CalhounLJ]

I think that we can all agree that being on B's side of the ball puts us in a more vulnerable position but we are there for good reason.  From analyzing film with the U on A's side of the ball when using 4 or 5 man crews we see a huge void in responsibilities.  Also, as Al mentioned, "supervising" the boys at the point of attack also gets a bit lost, and in many games that is a key component of the job. IMHO being where the action is not to be overlooked in relation to control of the game.

This may be the best argument I've read for keeping U on the B side. I know mine is invaluable to our crew just for his ability to keep the big guys under control. His favorite saying at the first play from scrimmage is "Ok, guys, I'm gonna be here all night. Ya'll behave." And they generally do. I would hate to lose that influence in the middle.

[Rich]

We've considered the wings primary in IDF and IFP for years now anyway.  Gone are the days our wings float downfield cause there *might* be a pass.

There are 3 areas where I think the U helps in the defensive backfield that I'd hate to give up:

(1) Presence in the "meat grinder". No matter how quickly either the U or R "get in there" after a play, it's just not the same.
(2) Help on trapped balls over the middle.  I think this is underrated.  I know we have an H, an L, and a B, but sometimes it just opens up to the U to see that ball skip off the turf, and he's saved our bacon more than once.  Mmm, bacon.
(3) Chop blocks are hard to get with line play from the offensive backfield, at least to this R.

That said, I'm willing to make this switch.  I think the U in the backfield is just a lot safer and I also think it provides better coverage on pass blocking (I have always thought the U spent more time dodging bodies than seeing things) and when the passer rolls away from the R.  Safety's number 1 to me, though.

[AlUpstateNY]

We've considered the wings primary in IDF and IFP for years now anyway.  Gone are the days our wings float downfield cause there *might* be a pass.

There are 3 areas where I think the U helps in the defensive backfield that I'd hate to give up:

(1) Presence in the "meat grinder". No matter how quickly either the U or R "get in there" after a play, it's just not the same.
(2) Help on trapped balls over the middle.  I think this is underrated.  I know we have an H, an L, and a B, but sometimes it just opens up to the U to see that ball skip off the turf, and he's saved our bacon more than once.  Mmm, bacon.
(3) Chop blocks are hard to get with line play from the offensive backfield, at least to this R.

That said, I'm willing to make this switch.  I think the U in the backfield is just a lot safer and I also think it provides better coverage on pass blocking (I have always thought the U spent more time dodging bodies than seeing things) and when the passer rolls away from the R.  Safety's number 1 to me, though.

NCAA and NFL, with 7, 8 maybe 9 man crews, universal IR ,wouldn't argue.  5 man crews at the NFHS level, a completely different threat/risk level.

[Ralph Damren]

In lieu of moving the  ump  to the other side of the tracks, per chance we could move him back to where the back judge now lives. We could then relocate the back judge to B's endline  with duties similar to the right field foul line umpire in MLB's postseason. The positions would be renamed : back judge (former umpire) and 'way back judge'.  With dodgeball removed from the public schools because of it's violence, there is little or no training for the future football umpires in our mist.

These were things mused by a crusty ole'  while shoveling snow and should not be considered the opinions of : NFHS, NCAA, NFL, ASPCA ,AFL/CIO, and the like 

  (R)  (HL,FG) ………………….. (BJ)………………………………………………………………………………... (WBJ)

[Badger1]

I started out as an Umpire in 1976 when we had 4 man crews and then switched to the Referee position in 1990.  During that time I did get banged around a bit but you learned where to position yourself for the most part.  I still remember my former Referee saying I was the best Umpire he had because I kept things under control in the trenches.  With our 5 man crew, my current Umpire has also been run into which is always a concern.  However, I feel that moving him to behind the line of scrimmage opposite the Referee leaves quite a void in the middle where it would be more difficult to pick up on the instigator when tempers flair as well as other line of scrimmage fouls.  I believe the presence of the Umpire in the middle deters someone from trying to take the cheap shot.  I personally would be opposed to that position be relocated.  Just my 2 cents worth.

[JasonTX]

The other side of moving the umpire to the offensive side is does he take over the QB when he crosses in front of him?  Things like roughing the passer and intentional grounding come to mind.  In college with the Center Judge that's what we do.

[GA Umpire]

I know we don't like to do this for consistency's sake, but maybe leave it up to the individual umpire whether he wants to work in the traditional spot or in the backfield?

I would vote for that choice.

[AlUpstateNY]

The other side of moving the umpire to the offensive side is does he take over the QB when he crosses in front of him?  Things like roughing the passer and intentional grounding come to mind.  In college with the Center Judge that's what we do.

This discussion seems a LOT more like "a solution in search of a problem".  Like many other challenging jobs, being an Umpire, at the traditional positioning, requires training, experience and a certain level of attitude to successfully, and safely handle ALL it's intended responsibilities.  There's a wealth of historical advice and documented mechanics available to guide the learning process. 

Reality suggests simply NOT EVERYONE is "cut out", nor qualified to be an Umpire (or deep, wing or supervisory (R) official).  Given time and experience, most acquire opportunity to sample each position before settling in on a choice.  Over time, that choice may change producing teams that are each comfortable and proficient in their chosen duties and responsibilities. 

Although we use the same titles at progressive levels of our game, there are SIGNIFICANT performance differences to account and respond to.  Differing player talent, complexity, and maturity realities at the progressive levels may well require adjustment and/or modification UNIQUE to each level, that may or MAY NOT be appropriate, necessary or practical at other levels.

Maybe someday ALL NFHS level games will enjoy 7, 8, or even 9 man crews, supported by professional level Instant Review played in weather resistant stadiums on synthetic turf and Game Officials won't dress in girl's Lockeroom's.  My crystal ball doesn't reach that far into the future, but God willing another HS football season will start again mid-summer.

[riffraft]

I have a U for a long time and this season I had the worst blindside in all my years.  Receiver came across the middle he didn't see me I didn't see him.  My LJ was it was a great blindside block and came running out because he didn't think I was getting up. Trainers were there as well. Well I did lay there for a bit and it took some time to shake it off.  But even with that this old man doesn't want to give up the view that I have being with B. Having to have you head on a swivel at times and being aware of what is going on is just part of the position, but the position is necessary.