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Offline Tom P

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Crew of 7 Questions
« on: January 30, 2022, 07:09:13 PM »
Does your state have Crews of 7? If so, when did it start? Do you have a mechanics manual? At what levels are Crews of 7 used? Used in regular season games? Playoffs? Any comments about whether there were positive or negative feedback from any of the stakeholders when Crews of 7 were implemented would be appreciated.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2022, 06:08:23 AM »
NC uses 7 for the Regionals and state finals.  We had two NCAA officials on our crew to train us and used the CFO or CCA manual when I worked my final.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2022, 06:53:01 AM »
Maine uses 7 in state championships only. We currently use CFO manual BUT there are rumors that NFHS 2022 Officials Manual will have section on 7-man.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2022, 07:21:54 AM »
Alabama mandates 7-man crews for 2nd round of playoffs through state finals, using our own manual.  7-man is recommended for 1st round, but schools can use 5-man by mutual consent.

Some schools will use 7-man during the season, either for all home games, or for region play only.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2022, 08:01:42 AM »
You are probably not interested in what we do here in Texas, but I'll give you the scoop, if it is of any value to you.

We have our own manual for crews of 7, based on CCA mechanics. Any game - regular season or playoffs -  may use a crew of 7 (from Class A-Division 1 (6-player football) all the way up to Class 6A-Division II), as the participating institutions my agree.  (FYI, technically, we have 12 classes in Texas, two 'divisions' each of Class A thru Class 6A).
Most, if not all, 6A and 5A districts use 7.
A lot (but not all) of 4A districts use 7.
Below that, crews of 7 are unusual for regular season. Once into playoffs, crews of 7 become more normal, especially the deeper you go.
Crews of 7 are used for all 2A thru 6A championship games. Crews of 5 for both Class A (six player) championship games.

In some areas, it becomes difficult to field crews of 7 for all of the requests, and be able to send crews of 5 to all of the other games. As much as we prefer to send 5 to all Class A games, there are times when some Class A games only get 4, and some 4A only get 5 (when 7 were requested).

The biggest problem with crews of 7 is that there are not many folks that are fully trained and proficient in that size of crew. Keys are more complicated, and require focus and concentration. Ball handing and spotting can be so much more efficient with 7, but the sideline guys aren't usually trained to be as active as they need to be for that. Yeah, unless we have really good ball persons for each team on each sideline, we're spinnin' our wheels, and we don't often get that, because of coach paranoia (they don't want somebody from the other team on their sideline). If you attend an FBS game in person, you can see how it is supposed to work. You can't see that watching on TV. And, effective use of the 'fade' by the deep sideline guys is often lacking.
7 can make life much easier, if done properly. But, I have worked games with untrained 7, and would have been far better off with my regular crew of 5.
Training is the key.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2022, 08:24:47 AM »
Maine uses 7 in state championships only. We currently use CFO manual BUT there are rumors that NFHS 2022 Officials Manual will have section on 7-man.

Leave it to NFHS to re-invent the wheel.

Offline Badger1

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2022, 08:52:14 AM »
In Wisconsin varsity games are 5 man crews including playoffs and championship games.  Can use 4 man crew in case of an emergency.  Some conferences have occasionally gone to scheduling varsity games on a Thursday evening instead of Fridays due to shortage of qualified crews.  While average pay in most conferences is $75 a person per game, one conference further up north has now upped their game fee to $125 a person for varsity football due to shortage of officials.  State fee for championship game is $100.

Offline Matt

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2022, 12:09:16 PM »
Michigan used to use 7 man only for state semis and finals. Most the leagues in Detroit metro area for the past 3-4 years now use 7 man all season. The MHSAA book does have a section for 7 man mechanics.

Offline KWH

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2022, 03:54:23 PM »
Leave it to NFHS to re-invent the wheel.

NFHS 7-Man mechanics will be issued as part of the 2022-23 NFHS Officials Manual.
The 7-man mechanics contains much more graphics and is a lot less wordy than 4-man and 5-man.
If it is successful, 4-man and 5-man will likely be changed into to this format in time for the 2024-25 Manual.
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
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Offline toma

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2022, 05:05:11 PM »
Starting this past season 2021, Mass use 7 man in the semi final & Super Bowl (2019 was just 5 man)  No playoffs in 2020.
With 8 divisions that means a lot more people got to work. 32 in semi and another 16 (Super Bowl)
This fall we had the first woman work a super bowl game.
Paid chain crews too.

Online Etref

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2022, 05:16:16 PM »
Seven man crews do no good without 7 man crew training.

" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline bossman72

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2022, 08:21:41 AM »
NFHS 7-Man mechanics will be issued as part of the 2022-23 NFHS Officials Manual.
The 7-man mechanics contains much more graphics and is a lot less wordy than 4-man and 5-man.
If it is successful, 4-man and 5-man will likely be changed into to this format in time for the 2024-25 Manual.

Ok, but I better not see guys positioned half way up the field on kickoffs or deep guys in front of the punt returner or some other silly stuff.  lol!

Offline KWH

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2022, 10:23:41 PM »
Ok, but I better not see guys positioned half way up the field on kickoffs or deep guys in front of the punt returner or some other silly stuff.  lol!

If you see any of that, you might question whos manual they are using. lol!
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2022, 08:34:28 AM »
Ok, but I better not see guys positioned half way up the field on kickoffs or deep guys in front of the punt returner or some other silly stuff.  lol!
Unfortunately, that's the case for my association's manual. In 5-man, the back judge is supposed to be in front of the punt returner. For a long time, pea whistles were required, but we got that removed this year. We use 7 for the playoffs, and sometimes for competitive regular season matchups.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2022, 09:49:06 AM »
Starting this past season 2021, Mass use 7 man in the semi final & Super Bowl (2019 was just 5 man)  No playoffs in 2020.
With 8 divisions that means a lot more people got to work. 32 in semi and another 16 (Super Bowl)
This fall we had the first woman work a super bowl game.
Paid chain crews too.
For state championships we use per game: 7 field officials ($80 game fee X 150% = $120)
                                                               4 chain crew ($35 )
                                                               2 GCO+ asst. ($80/$35) BJ keeps PC)

For 4 11-man games & 2 8-man games = 78 officials working out of 250+. Field officials are assigned by coaches votes & chapter votes, GCO is some ole' duffer that knows how. His asst. & chain crew are new hard-working officials. Field officials can only work every other year.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2022, 11:03:52 AM »
For state championships we use per game: 7 field officials ($80 game fee X 150% = $120)
                                                               4 chain crew ($35 )
                                                               2 GCO+ asst. ($80/$35) BJ keeps PC)

For 4 11-man games & 2 8-man games = 78 officials working out of 250+. Field officials are assigned by coaches votes & chapter votes, GCO is some ole' duffer that knows how. His asst. & chain crew are new hard-working officials. Field officials can only work every other year.

You have two GCOs plus an assistant, but the B has to keep the play clock himself? Does that mean you don't have field play clocks? If so...wow. In this day and age, for a state championship game? Wow.
The first time I had field play clocks, I thought, "This is so sweet. Now I can focus on keys, pre-snap routine, etc. And I don't have to worry about catching grief because the defense thought the play clock should have expired, or vice-versa. It is what it is, coach. No more checking my watch, holding my hand over my head, counting down the last few seconds with the horizontal arm chop."
Haven't had to deal with that in many decades (even in high school). I hope y'all can get that fixed.
But, for gosh sakes. Avoid wireless game/play clocks. They are HORRIBLE. The vendors will tout the cost savings for not having to trench and place conduit from the pressbox to the field. But they don't tell you that cell phones interfere with the signals, and cause the clocks to 'hang up,' 'blank out,' and 'freeze.' You end up just keeping it on the field, which is totally counter-productive. They'll tell you it isn't a problem. They'll even 'test' the system with the school, and it will work just fine. But, that's not with a stadium full of people with cell phones. Just don't let them go there. Prohibit them (wireless), if you can.
Good luck.


Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2022, 05:46:34 AM »
But, for gosh sakes. Avoid wireless game/play clocks. They are HORRIBLE. The vendors will tout the cost savings for not having to trench and place conduit from the pressbox to the field. But they don't tell you that cell phones interfere with the signals, and cause the clocks to 'hang up,' 'blank out,' and 'freeze.' You end up just keeping it on the field, which is totally counter-productive. They'll tell you it isn't a problem. They'll even 'test' the system with the school, and it will work just fine. But, that's not with a stadium full of people with cell phones. Just don't let them go there. Prohibit them (wireless), if you can.
Good luck.

This x 100.  It’s exactly what happened here a few years ago.  Our PCOs loved it, though, since they basically got paid for watching a game.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2022, 05:55:58 AM »
For state championships we use per game: 7 field officials ($80 game fee X 150% = $120)
                                                               4 chain crew ($35 )
                                                               2 GCO+ asst. ($80/$35) BJ keeps PC)

For 4 11-man games & 2 8-man games = 78 officials working out of 250+. Field officials are assigned by coaches votes & chapter votes, GCO is some ole' duffer that knows how. His asst. & chain crew are new hard-working officials. Field officials can only work every other year.
My post wasn't clear :'2 GCO +asst.' was meant to be a game clock operator + an assistant to do down, distance, score, etc .Four of our six games are played on high school fields where there are no play clocks. Two are played at UMaine, where there is a play clock, but the decision has been to keep it by the back judge as the regular season has provided. With the exception of the deep wings, the officials are assigned to positions that they are used to, not just seven referees out there. Coaches and players  are used to looking toward BJ for his 'poor man's stopwatch' and we haven't felt the need to change.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2022, 07:07:41 AM »
As the commercial used to say, “Try it. You’ll like it.”
Seriously. Once you have them, you won’t wan to go back to keeping it on the field. But, it does require trained PCOs, be they assigned officials or home provided assistants. Not that difficult, but training is required.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2022, 07:37:50 AM »
As the commercial used to say, “Try it. You’ll like it.”
Seriously. Once you have them, you won’t wan to go back to keeping it on the field. But, it does require trained PCOs, be they assigned officials or home provided assistants. Not that difficult, but training is required.
With the advent of the 40" clock came the thoughts of adding visible play clocks. The expense of adding the field clocks would require many bake sales as it would need not only the clocks but the play clock operator itself as it would be deemed to be a booster's club, not the school's expense. When we went from four to five man crews several years ago, a major selling point was the BJ signaling the delay of game countdown. The majority of coaches were happy with that and felt no need for a visible clock then or now.

Only a few of our schools hire an official to run the game clock now and  several times we've had to throw the ball (stopwatch) to the LJ for the game clock because of incompendence. Our officiating numbers are thin and it would be a challenge to supply all schools with GCO's if wanted. Thanks for the input ,Elvis, and I'm sure where football is huge in Texas, these are not problems for you guys. I understand official's pay is based on gate receipts there ….in Maine, if we used that , some officials would only receive pocket change  :).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 07:42:13 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2022, 10:03:59 AM »
With the advent of the 40" clock came the thoughts of adding visible play clocks. The expense of adding the field clocks would require many bake sales as it would need not only the clocks but the play clock operator itself as it would be deemed to be a booster's club, not the school's expense. When we went from four to five man crews several years ago, a major selling point was the BJ signaling the delay of game countdown. The majority of coaches were happy with that and felt no need for a visible clock then or now.

Only a few of our schools hire an official to run the game clock now and  several times we've had to throw the ball (stopwatch) to the LJ for the game clock because of incompendence. Our officiating numbers are thin and it would be a challenge to supply all schools with GCO's if wanted. Thanks for the input ,Elvis, and I'm sure where football is huge in Texas, these are not problems for you guys. I understand official's pay is based on gate receipts there ….in Maine, if we used that , some officials would only receive pocket change  :).

Oh, there are problems. Believe me. Yes, there are a limited number of locations that have enough members in the TASO units that cover their contests that the TASO units can assign GCOs/PCOs to those contests. However, the vast majority of GCOs and PCOs in Texas are provided by the host institution. Many of those folks are school board members, teachers, or just community members. You may not believe this, but there is NO formal training program for clock operators in Texas. Neither by the UIL (statewide athletics governing body - actually a component of the University of Texas), nor by TASO (state wide independent officiating organization for the major Texas high school athletic sports).
Of the four playoff games my crew worked this year, only one host site provided an experienced and competent PCO. But, I will give HER props - she was exceptionally good. I wish I had her at every game. But, for the second consecutive year, three games deep into playoffs - at the SAME HOST INSTITUTION (a 'neutral site') - we had a play clock operator that had never run a play clock previously. Totally nuts. And, yes, there were problems. Despite as thorough of a pre-game conference as we could provide with him, we were frequently having to pump him to 25 and hold for my signal after punts, or to 40 and start after kickoffs. This was the week after we had the exceptionally good PCO (whose home institution was not involved in playoffs). So, I wondered: If your regular PCO isn't available, why not call some other area institutions and see if their regular PCO might be able to help out? Apparently they think it is easy, and anybody can do it, at a moment's notice.
At another 'neutral' host institution, they also had a PCO that had never run a play clock previously. When asked why their regular PCO wasn't doing this, the answer was: "Well, this isn't our game, and its hunting season." Same kinds of problems.

Regular season games are not quite so bad, because they do, usually, have PCOs that have experience. But, we have to keep an eye on things.

Having given all of these 'negative' things, I will now say that properly operated visible play clocks make for a far, far smoother and better officiated game. I would have said that even when we only had the 25-second interval. But it is even more true, nowadays, with the 40-second - and automatic - interval. If the B has to try to keep the 40-second clock, and he is expected to start it at the proper moment, then he has to neglect dead-ball officiating while he checks his watch or starts his belt-mounted timer. This interferes with management of players and ball handling, at the very least, or leads to very inconsistent play clock operation, none of which are good things. The independent PCO, starting/re-setting the play clock according to rule, leaves the on-field folks free to focus on the elements of the game that can become major control issues, if not tightly managed.

I've probably given you all kinds of 'con' reasons regarding visible play clocks. But, believe me, if you work a few games with visible play clocks that are reasonably well operated, you would never want to go back to keeping it on the field.
Try it. You'll like it.

 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 11:40:57 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2022, 11:32:58 AM »

I've probably given you all kinds of 'con' reasons regarding visible play clocks. But, believe, if you work a few games with visible play clocks that are reasonably well operated, you would never want to go back to keeping it on the field.
Try it. You'll like it.

FWIW long tome ago (Prior to 1970) Our chapter was blessed with some very smart forward looking members who established a universal policy (from Varsity to Youth Football).  If the venue had a scoreboard electric clock it would ONLY be operated by an active  member of our Association.  Otherwise the clock would be kept on the field, by the Officiating Crew. 

Over the ensuing decades there have been complaints, suggestions to "run UNofficial scoreboard clocks" (tried and determined to be a total Cluster****) which have been politely rejected.  There is a separate fee for our Clock Operators and with the advent of the 40 Sec. Play Clocks a 2nd active Official is available, or a dual clock operator at a higher clock fee.

Perhaps because this policy has persisted for 60+ years and has consistently survived periodic challenges, adoption of recent adjustments to accommodate Play Clocks has been less contentious.  Our Official Clock Operators are fully dressed as Crew members and arrive & depart with the Crew.  The results are far fewer arguments/discussions over timing issues, which are handled on the field with the Referee who when necessary will communicate with the Clock operator directly.  These Clock Operator position(s) has proven to be helpful with both newer Officials, as well as seasoned Officials choosing Clock assignments and continue to eliminate timing related problems or complaints.

Our Official Clock Operators DO NOT have any responsibility for operation of additional scoreboard functions (Down/distance, YD, etc) although as a curtesy, we will add scores & TOL for the benefit of the Crew.  We are thankful & appreciative of those former members who initiated this practice LONG ago, and have held it firm.  When a field clock(s) is operated, it will be operated by an active Official otherwise time will be managed on the field.

Offline dieter

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2022, 07:01:46 PM »
In Illinois we are 5 man crew all the way through the playoffs. In the Chicago area it looks like this will be the first year that we will not have enough 5 man crews to work all Friday night games. Some games need to move to Thurs or Sat.  If we went to 7 we could never cover all the varsity games with qualified officials.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2022, 03:20:21 PM »
Thanks, guys, for your thoughts on this. I'm not anti-visual play clock as I am a play clock operator at 3 NCAA D-III schools. I just know my BJ knows what to do and does it. :thumbup There doesn't appear to be any big movement in Maine for even the richer private schools to move in that direction. "Out of sight, out of mind" is more than this year's prom queen who was dating a graduate who is off to college and now again eligible. IMHO, that same slogan applies to the BJ & 40' clock.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 03:51:34 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline KWH

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Re: Crew of 7 Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2022, 05:09:40 PM »

Only THE richest private school in Oregon installed play clocks recently and they ordered a controller that is the size of a tablet.
The made a special holster for it and the B wears it and runs the clocks during the game.
I believe there is some shell shock with first time B's see the size of the controller.
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