When a coin toss goes bad

[ilyazhito]

Granted, I'm usually not within earshot of coaches on touchdown plays, but if they act a fool, they will pay. Players act foolish, they're going to get a talking-to, or if the act is egregious enough, an immediate flag. Taunting is a no-no, and so is demonstrating disrespect (deliberately refusing to shake a captain's hand). There is no room for a Sean Avery on the football field.

[Ralph Damren]

I would prefer that the current signs that read:

[/NO ALCOHOL , TOBACCO , OR FIREARMS

BE EXPANDED TO :

NO ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS OR CELLPHONES

In MMHO, most cellphones have cameras..most cameras will be recording every play. Not every fan will be happy with our call on every play. We will be reminded again..and again...and again. b]

[AlUpstateNY]

Granted, I'm usually not within earshot of coaches on touchdown plays, but if they act a fool, they will pay. Players act foolish, they're going to get a talking-to, or if the act is egregious enough, an immediate flag. Taunting is a no-no, and so is demonstrating disrespect (deliberately refusing to shake a captain's hand). There is no room for a Sean Avery on the football field.

"One-upsmanship" and "Taunting" are the seeds from which fights and riots grow.  If your objective is putting out fires, started over STUPID behavior, allow them to proceed, unchecked.

[fudilligas]

it seems to me that if the NFHS wants to crack down on sportsmanship they should make the taunting on a touchdown enforced from the spot of the taunt and take away the score....this would light a fire under the coaches to  rein in their players

[ilyazhito]

it seems to me that if the NFHS wants to crack down on sportsmanship they should make the taunting on a touchdown enforced from the spot of the taunt and take away the score....this would light a fire under the coaches to  rein in their players

I agree. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[fudilligas]

ralph....has enforcing taunting from the spot of the foul on a score ever been discussed ....i know it would have to be an "exception"...but probably worth the change

[CalhounLJ]

ralph....has enforcing taunting from the spot of the foul on a score ever been discussed ....i know it would have to be an "exception"...but probably worth the change

I’m thinking way back there (maybe in the days of the leather helmets) we used to enforce taunting as a live ball personal foul. But I admit, my memory is not as good as it used to be.  Along about the time when somersaulting into the end zone was considered cool.


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[Ralph Damren]

It was discussed a few years ago but never made it out of sub-committee.  It was felt that increasing the severity of the penalty would decrease the number of times called and it was felt that it may not currently be called enough. While I'm two years younger than our current president, I'm probably older than many of you and can't recall USC ever being treated as a live ball foul.

[AlUpstateNY]

It was discussed a few years ago but never made it out of sub-committee.  It was felt that increasing the severity of the penalty would decrease the number of times called and it was felt that it may not currently be called enough. While I'm two years younger than our current president, I'm probably older than many of you and can't recall USC ever being treated as a live ball foul.

Its as old as time; When consequences go down, frequency goes UP, When consequences go up, frequency goes DOWN, and/or the more you ignore the more you'll have to deal with.

[refjeff]

Not a foul.  It might not be sportsmanlike, but it does not rise to the level of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

You're going to make them come back out and your going to make them shake hands?  How?  How many flags are you going to throw and how many players and coaches are you going to DQ before the kickoff?

Don't be a pioneer.  Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

It's their game, not ours.  The players and coaches have a lot more invested than we do.  I'm not there to draw attention to myself.

I say something about sportsmanship to the coach and captains before the game because I am required to.  I am positive the coach and captains do not repeated my words to the entire team.   So my words are nearly meaningless.  What the crew does and says during the game is of much greater importance.

I'm the R.  The coin toss is mine.  If you drop a flag because you think they should shake hands I am going to pick it up and wave it off.  Then I am going to have words about you disrespecting me.

[AlUpstateNY]

Not a foul.  It might not be sportsmanlike, but it does not rise to the level of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

 

Which code are you referencing?  My 2021 NFHS Rule Book defines "Unsportsmanlike Conduct(by players- 9-5-1) as, "No player shall act in an Unsportsmanlike manner ONCE THE GAME OFFICIALS ASSUME AUTHORITY FOR THE CONTEST.  Subsections A & F seem to contradict your conclusion.  NFHS 9-8-1 USC by NonPlayers  seems to share similar intent (supported by Subsection examples A(Note).

Of course how each of us interprets & understands these rules is our own personal decision.  However establishing, and subsequently maintaining a civil & appropriate competitive attitude is a major officiating objective.  Allowing any sort of Unsportsmanlike conduct, or behavior is a primary responsibility of the Game Officials and allowing ANY such behavior by participants and/or supervising staff is a recipe for encouraging additional such behavior. 

That choice is determined by the Officiating crew at each game, who must live with the consequences of their choice. 

[KWH]

Al - disagree with  "Of course how each of us interprets & understands these rules is our own personal decision."

If an official chooses to distinguish themselves by throwing UNS flags in the coin toss,
I would certainly hope said official has the complete support of his/her commissioner(assigner) and his/her state rules interpreter?

This would be an example of a rule interpretation that needs to be supported by your state rather than your own personal decision!

[AlUpstateNY]

My Chrystal ball is surmising, just before Alf fell off his stool, he was preparing to reference Rule 9-5-1f?

ART. 1...No player shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner one the game officials assume authority for the contest. Example are, but not limited to:
f. Refusing to comply with a game officials request.

Alf?  Am I correct?

Alas typing skills remain a challenge thankfully I have learned "Fire prevention" is usually far less consequential than "Fire Fighting".

[CalhounLJ]

Not a foul.  It might not be sportsmanlike, but it does not rise to the level of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

You're going to make them come back out and your going to make them shake hands?  How?  How many flags are you going to throw and how many players and coaches are you going to DQ before the kickoff?

Don't be a pioneer.  Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

It's their game, not ours.  The players and coaches have a lot more invested than we do.  I'm not there to draw attention to myself.

I say something about sportsmanship to the coach and captains before the game became I am required to.  I am positive the coach and captains do not repeated my words to the entire team.   So my words are nearly meaningless.  What the crew does and says during the game is of much greater importance.

I'm the R.  The coin toss is mine.  If you drop a flag because you think they should shake hands I am going to pick it up and wave it off.  Then I am going to have words about you disrespecting me.

I agree completely. My job at the coin toss is to remind them that they should play the game as good sports, not to make them like each other. It’s possible to be sportsmanlike before, during, and after the game without ever shaking hands.


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[AlUpstateNY]

I agree completely. My job at the coin toss is to remind them that they should play the game as good sports, not to make them like each other. It’s possible to be sportsmanlike before, during, and after the game without ever shaking hands.
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When in doubt, consult the "Rule 2" of language, a Dictionary: Sportsmanlike: Pertaining to sportsmen; honorable; generous; confirming to the rules of sportsmanship.  Sportsmanship: 1 The art or practice of field sports. 2. Honorable or sportsmanlike conduct.

The NFHS "Coin Flip" is intended as a meeting to start a "Friendly Contest" between competitive teams of "Teenagers". Its NOT a meeting between opposing War Chiefs before starting a battle, although if YOU allow one side to start it that way, it can easily become one. that YOU & YOUR CREW will have to deal with.

 "Stupid is as Stupid does" (or allows to happen).  That choice is your's to make.   

[CalhounLJ]

When in doubt, consult the "Rule 2" of language, a Dictionary: Sportsmanlike: Pertaining to sportsmen; honorable; generous; confirming to the rules of sportsmanship.  Sportsmanship: 1 The art or practice of field sports. 2. Honorable or sportsmanlike conduct.

The NFHS "Coin Flip" is intended as a meeting to start a "Friendly Contest" between competitive teams of "Teenagers". Its NOT a meeting between opposing War Chiefs before starting a battle, although if YOU allow one side to start it that way, it can easily become one. that YOU & YOUR CREW will have to deal with.

 "Stupid is as Stupid does" (or allows to happen).  That choice is your's to make.

Like I said, opposing teams can be sportsmanlike without shaking hands... or even liking one another.

[toma]

This really happened, Standing at mid field, I flip my coin (1886 liberty silver dollar) The U he's 6'5" leans in to hear the captain 's call . the coin goes over his head and down the inside back of his shirt.
Both pairs of captain's & myself are looking for the coin. Where the hell did it go?
The U starts laughing, he starts wiggling and shacking his leg and coin pops out on the ground.
Tails.
I used my spare flag to pick it up.   

[fudilligas]

This really happened, Standing at mid field, I flip my coin (1886 liberty silver dollar) The U he's 6'5" leans in to hear the captain 's call . the coin goes over his head and down the inside back of his shirt.
Both pairs of captain's & myself are looking for the coin. Where the hell did it go?
The U starts laughing, he starts wiggling and shacking his leg and coin pops out on the ground.
Tails.
I used my spare flag to pick it up.

which is why you ask the captain for his choice BEFORE you flip the coin

[CalhounLJ]

When in doubt, consult the "Rule 2" of language, a Dictionary: Sportsmanlike: Pertaining to sportsmen; honorable; generous; confirming to the rules of sportsmanship.  Sportsmanship: 1 The art or practice of field sports. 2. Honorable or sportsmanlike conduct.

The NFHS "Coin Flip" is intended as a meeting to start a "Friendly Contest" between competitive teams of "Teenagers". Its NOT a meeting between opposing War Chiefs before starting a battle, although if YOU allow one side to start it that way, it can easily become one. that YOU & YOUR CREW will have to deal with.

 "Stupid is as Stupid does" (or allows to happen).  That choice is your's to make.

Stupid is a really strong word Al.

[refjeff]

 

Which code are you referencing?  My 2021 NFHS Rule Book defines "Unsportsmanlike Conduct(by players- 9-5-1) as, "No player shall act in an Unsportsmanlike manner ONCE THE GAME OFFICIALS ASSUME AUTHORITY FOR THE CONTEST.  Subsections A & F seem to contradict your conclusion.  NFHS 9-8-1 USC by NonPlayers  seems to share similar intent (supported by Subsection examples A(Note).

Of course how each of us interprets & understands these rules is our own personal decision.  However establishing, and subsequently maintaining a civil & appropriate competitive attitude is a major officiating objective.  Allowing any sort of Unsportsmanlike conduct, or behavior is a primary responsibility of the Game Officials and allowing any such behavior by participants and/or supervising staff is a recipe for encouraging additional such behavior. 

That choice is determined by the Officiating crew at each game, who must live with the consequences of their choice.

"Seem to?"

I don't officiate that way.  Make it be there.

[AlUpstateNY]

Stupid is a really strong word Al.

I'm not suggesting anyone in particular is "Stupid", but we are ALL liable for being considered as such by the behaviors we (Ourselves) elect to exhibit, tolerate or recommend.  Blatant & unnecessary actions / words / deeds designed, or intended to project or encourage hostility are inherently DESTRUCTIVE and should be immediately dealt with and rejected.

The NFHS Officials Manual advises "If the potential value of game experience are to be attained, it is necessary that the actions of the players be in conformity to the rules.  Game Officials must accept the RESPONSIBILITY of enforcing the letter AS WELL AS THE SPIRIT, of the rules promptly and with consistency."

That responsibility extends to anyone/everyone DIRECTLY associated with the operation of the contest. 

[CalhounLJ]

I'm not suggesting anyone in particular is "Stupid", but we are ALL liable for being considered as such by the behaviors we (Ourselves) elect to exhibit, tolerate or recommend.  Blatant & unnecessary actions / words / deeds designed, or intended to project or encourage hostility are inherently DESTRUCTIVE and should be immediately dealt with and rejected.

The NFHS Officials Manual advises "If the potential value of game experience are to be attained, it is necessary that the actions of the players be in conformity to the rules.  Game Officials must accept the RESPONSIBILITY of enforcing the letter AS WELL AS THE SPIRIT, of the rules promptly and with consistency."

That responsibility extends to anyone/everyone DIRECTLY associated with the operation of the contest.

Still doesn’t mean someone who handles a situation different than you is stupid. That’s a strong word.


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[AlUpstateNY]

Still doesn’t mean someone who handles a situation different than you is stupid. That’s a strong word.
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I NEVER suggested "Someone who handles a situation different than me, is "stupid". I acknowledged that we are each entitled to our OWN decisions & conclusions, on the handling of many matters, but cautioned that those decisions may very likely reflect on how we are (EACH)
ubsequently perceived.

[CalhounLJ]

I NEVER suggested "Someone who handles a situation different than me, is "stupid". I acknowledged that we are each entitled to our OWN decisions & conclusions, on the handling of many matters, but cautioned that those decisions may very likely reflect on how we are (EACH)
ubsequently perceived.

"Stupid is as Stupid does" (or allows to happen).  That choice is your's to make.”


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[AlUpstateNY]

Not quite sure where you're trying to go with this.   Who/What is usually determined to be stupid, is usually established by What action/comment/behavior we've EACH CHOSEN to actually do/say.  Since EACH OF US usually determines & decides what WE choose to say/do/ behave like, the value of OUR decision reflects on us.

Our avocation provides extensive opportunities to render OUR personal informed assessments & conclusions about judgments we are empowered and expected to regularly make, many of which are subject to uninformed question and/or doubt.  Making such judgments without the necessary extensive study, ongoing assessment and exhaustive review expose  EACH of us to speculation regarding our intelligence.  It's a risk EACH of has to accept.