Invalid Fair Catch?

[Bulldog75]

Had a play last week.  Scrimmage kick goes short and hits the ground.  Returner gives a fair catch signal after the ball touches the ground, then recovers the ball.  Then gives another fair catch signal after recovering the ball.  The initial signal and the recovery point were both behind the returner's 25 yard line.


Ruling: Invalid fair catch because the ball had already touched the ground.  Whistle it dead when Team B recovers it.  Team B's ball 1st and 10 at the point of recovery, no penalty.

Is that correct?  If it was on a free kick, only difference is Team B would get the ball at B-25?

[TexasProud]

Had a play last week.  Scrimmage kick goes short and hits the ground.  Returner gives a fair catch signal after the ball touches the ground, then recovers the ball.  Then gives another fair catch signal after recovering the ball.  The initial signal and the recovery point were both behind the returner's 25 yard line.


Ruling: Invalid fair catch because the ball had already touched the ground.  Whistle it dead when Team B recovers it.  Team B's ball 1st and 10 at the point of recovery, no penalty.

Is that correct?  If it was on a free kick, only difference is Team B would get the ball at B-25?

Rules of thumb I go by.  Certainly anyone correct me if I'm wrong:
1.  It's never a "penalty" against the receiving team for an invalid fair catch signal.  There can be a penalty if there is an attempt to advance the ball but that's not announced as an invalid signal. 
2.  The ball can never be advanced when any form (valid or invalid) fair catch signal is given.
3.  If the ball touches the ground on a free kick Team B is never awarded the ball at the B-25 because of the fair catch.  The ball has to be caught in the air.

In summary, there's really not much difference between an invalid and valid fair catch signal.  The biggest difference is Team A (kicking team) gets a little more latitude during an invalid signal process. 

[ElvisLives]

Let's get terminology straight. It makes a difference.
A catch, by definition, is taking possession of a ball that is in flight (i.e., before it touches the ground). Taking possession of the ball after it strikes the ground is recovering. In this scenario, there is no 'catch' at all. There is a recovery.

A valid signal is one given before the ball strikes the ground (and meets other criteria). A signal given after the ball strikes the ground is an invalid signal (there are other things that make a signal invalid, too, but we're only concerned here with the fact that the legally kicked ball struck the ground before it was possessed). Whether valid or invalid, if a signal is given, the legally kicked ball may not be advanced, whether caught or recovered; the ball is dead when the catch/recovery is completed, whether the catch/recovery is made by the signaler, or any other player.

A catch of a legally kicked ball following an valid fair catch signal is a fair catch. If the catcher is then contacted significantly or tackled by an opponent, the opponent has committed a foul for an illegal block or tackle following a fair catch.

A catch of a legally kicked ball following an invalid fair catch signal is NOT a fair catch. It is just a catch. If the catcher is then immediately contacted/tackled (without the contact also being a personal foul) by an opponent, there is no foul by the opponent. (Note: The catcher is protected by UNR Late Hit rules.)

Following either a valid or invalid signal, a "catch" of a legally free kicked ball made by the signaler behind Team B's 25 yard line gives the ball to Team B at the B-25. (If another B player catches the ball, that is NOT a fair catch, the catcher is not 'protected,' and they get the ball at the spot of the catch.)
Following either a valid or invalid signal, a "recovery" of a legally free kicked ball made by any player of Team B behind Team B's 25 yard line gives the ball to Team B at the spot of the recovery.

A signal given after the ball strikes the ground is an invalid signal, and rules pertaining to a recovery of a kick after an invalid signal apply (ball is dead, no protection, no advance).
A signal given after the ball is in possession by B is an invalid signal, and rules pertaining to a recovery of a kick after an invalid signal apply (ball is dead, no protection, no advance).

It is very important to use correct terminology when discussing rules with other officials, so as to not confuse the conditions of the discussion.

[Bulldog75]

Thank you both for the clarification.

Invalid signal, not invalid fair catch in that scenario.


What happens if more than one Team B player gives a fair catch signal?

[TexasProud]

Thank you both for the clarification.

Invalid signal, not invalid fair catch in that scenario.


What happens if more than one Team B player gives a fair catch signal?

Doesn't matter if more than one Team B player gives a fair catch signal.  One signal or 11 signals all mean the same thing.  That being, the ball cannot be advanced.  If by chance the Team B player actually catching the kick is not the one who gives a signal, that player still cannot advance the ball and the play becomes dead upon possession but IMO you also give Team A just a little bit a grace in the event they tackle the player making the catch.  If Team A cannot see the signal being given because it's by another Team B player, that needs some consideration.

[dammitbobby]

A signal given after the ball is in possession by B is an invalid signal, and rules pertaining to a recovery of a kick after an invalid signal apply (ball is dead, no protection, no advance).

Interesting thought - I can't think of any other condition where a runner, still in bounds, without a body part other than hand or foot on the ground, in fact potentially not in contact with any defensive player at all,  can, at his own choosing, end the play immediately without going down.

Reminds of when we were all kids (I know we all did this) playing tag, and someone suddenly throws up a timeout T signal right before they got tagged, so as not be be 'it'.

Actually thought of one more, but it has an even more remote possibility of occurring:  ballcarrier elects to take his helmet off in the middle of a play.

[ElvisLives]

Interesting thought - I can't think of any other condition where a runner, still in bounds, without a body part other than hand or foot on the ground, in fact potentially not in contact with any defensive player at all,  can, at his own choosing, end the play immediately without going down.

Reminds of when we were all kids (I know we all did this) playing tag, and someone suddenly throws up a timeout T signal right before they got tagged, so as not be be 'it'.

Actually thought of one more, but it has an even more remote possibility of occurring:  ballcarrier elects to take his helmet off in the middle of a play.

Well, there is always the return kick, or a scrimmage kick made from beyond the NZ.  Flag, whistle, S3.

[PeterPaulandMary]

Let's get terminology straight. It makes a difference.
A catch, by definition, is taking possession of a ball that is in flight (i.e., before it touches the ground). Taking possession of the ball after it strikes the ground is recovering. In this scenario, there is no 'catch' at all. There is a recovery.

A valid signal is one given before the ball strikes the ground (and meets other criteria). A signal given after the ball strikes the ground is an invalid signal (there are other things that make a signal invalid, too, but we're only concerned here with the fact that the legally kicked ball struck the ground before it was possessed). Whether valid or invalid, if a signal is given, the legally kicked ball may not be advanced, whether caught or recovered; the ball is dead when the catch/recovery is completed, whether the catch/recovery is made by the signaler, or any other player.

A catch of a legally kicked ball following an valid fair catch signal is a fair catch. If the catcher is then contacted significantly or tackled by an opponent, the opponent has committed a foul for an illegal block or tackle following a fair catch.

A catch of a legally kicked ball following an invalid fair catch signal is NOT a fair catch. It is just a catch. If the catcher is then immediately contacted/tackled (without the contact also being a personal foul) by an opponent, there is no foul by the opponent. (Note: The catcher is protected by UNR Late Hit rules.)

Following either a valid or invalid signal, a "catch" of a legally free kicked ball made by the signaler behind Team B's 25 yard line gives the ball to Team B at the B-25. (If another B player catches the ball, that is NOT a fair catch, the catcher is not 'protected,' and they get the ball at the spot of the catch.)
Following either a valid or invalid signal, a "recovery" of a legally free kicked ball made by any player of Team B behind Team B's 25 yard line gives the ball to Team B at the spot of the recovery.

A signal given after the ball strikes the ground is an invalid signal, and rules pertaining to a recovery of a kick after an invalid signal apply (ball is dead, no protection, no advance).
A signal given after the ball is in possession by B is an invalid signal, and rules pertaining to a recovery of a kick after an invalid signal apply (ball is dead, no protection, no advance).

It is very important to use correct terminology when discussing rules with other officials, so as to not confuse the conditions of the discussion.

What an excellent explanation. Thank you. Btw, CFO does call a "recovery" "scooped up" in their week 2 quiz.  Recovery is technically correct and more professional, IMO.  However, I can see where using a more commonly understood description can accelerate the learning curve, especially for newer officials. Like learning a foreign language, speak to be understood and worry about grammar later.  However, I assume if you're prowling a forum like this, like I am, grammar is to you.  My officiating grammar isn't perfect and welcome any and all correction.