Ball Placement AFTER failure to meet LTG

[MClays99]

This question came up at our most recent local association meeting - Ohio.  After a failed 4th down attempt - do you leave the ball where it lies and go the other way 1st & 10, or do you move the ball the length of the ball so the "nose" of the ball rests where the "nose" of the ball from the previous down ended and go the other way?  We had a discussion about whether or not the "nose" of the ball matters when placing it for the next series of downs.  I could not find anything in the NFHS books.

Thanks,

MClays99

[riffraft]

If We are in a part of the field where "inches" don't matter, I am going to move it and have it on a hash if the field had yard line hash marks.  If it ends on one side of a big line, I am moving it to the other side of the big line. There are general ways of doing it, but specific circumstances may change it.

[Ralph Damren]

The ball remains in place. What was the 'nose' of the ball is now the 'tail' of the ball. In pre-game you may wish to instruct the box guy to move downs marker by the length of the football on an incomplete 4th down pass. 

[BIG UMP]

We will move it backwards to a line.  Always move it backwards, if you move it forward to the next line and that was the front stake, you may have to answer to a coach how its on the line and that was where the front stake was and its not a first down for him.

But, technically the ball stays still and the chains move.  The front point become the back point.

[NVFOA_Ump]

We will move it backwards to a line.  Always move it backwards, if you move it forward to the next line and that was the front stake, you may have to answer to a coach how its on the line and that was where the front stake was and its not a first down for him.

But, technically the ball stays still and the chains move.  The front point become the back point.

I was always taught and by rule it is correct that the "spot" is the foremost part of the ball regardless of how it is facing when it is declared dead.  That being said the correct location of the ball for the 1st down spot after change of possession should reflect that fact.  ex: After a 4th down incomplete pass we put the ball on the box and the box does not move.

Additionally if we a starting that new series anywhere between the 25's we put the ball back to the nearest hash, effectively starting that series on a hash.

[sir55]

On a 4th down incomplete pass they gain the length of the ball. So the chain and box should move. I cannot find in the rules or the mechanics anything about moving the ball to a hash mark.

[MClays99]

Thanks for the responses.  One of our members is a "where is it in the rule book" kinda guy, so if anyone has any knowledge of whether or not guidance resides there it would be helpful.

[Ralph Damren]

On a 4th down incomplete pass they gain the length of the ball. So the chain and box should move. I cannot find in the rules or the mechanics anything about moving the ball to a hash mark.

Being ole' school, I agree, " moving the ball to a hash " ain't no where to be found.  I realize that it makes our job a little easier, but IMHO, it should stay where it lay. I allow our guys to spot an interception or kick return on a hash, but on a turnover on downs, I feel it should stay where the play ended with the forward tip now becoming the rear tip. If we all agreed on everything, this would become more of a sewing circle than a forum.
                                                                                                                                                                   

[NVFOA_Ump]

Being ole' school, I agree, " moving the ball to a hash " ain't no where to be found.  I realize that it makes our job a little easier, but IMHO, it should stay where it lay. I allow our guys to spot an interception or kick return on a hash, but on a turnover on downs, I feel it should stay where the play ended with the forward tip now becoming the rear tip. If we all agreed on everything, this would become more of a sewing circle than a forum.
                                                                                                                                                                 

Except that Rule 2-41-3 defines the DB spot as the foremost part of the ball when it is dead.   

[refjeff]

I was always taught and by rule it is correct that the "spot" is the foremost part of the ball regardless of how it is facing when it is declared dead.  That being said the correct location of the ball for the 1st down spot after change of possession should reflect that fact.  ex: After a 4th down incomplete pass we put the ball on the box and the box does not move.

Sorry, no. The down box & chains move. RB 5.3.3 a & b.  Case Book 5.5.3 Situation.

I understand that many officials, maybe most, do this incorrectly.

[refjeff]

We will move it backwards to a line.  Always move it backwards, if you move it forward to the next line and that was the front stake, you may have to answer to a coach how its on the line and that was where the front stake was and its not a first down for him.

I understand, and I don't want to belabor the point, but I also don't want to have to explain to a coach that the reason we moved the ball a couple of feet farther from the goalline was to make it easier for us.  He will never understand that.

Like Mr. Damren, I am old school and started officiating when we had hash marks and no field had yard marks and I know the difference between the two and use the terms correctly.  Which almost no one does.

[refjeff]

This question came up at our most recent local association meeting - Ohio.  After a failed 4th down attempt - do you leave the ball where it lies and go the other way 1st & 10, or do you move the ball the length of the ball so the "nose" of the ball rests where the "nose" of the ball from the previous down ended and go the other way?  We had a discussion about whether or not the "nose" of the ball matters when placing it for the next series of downs.  I could not find anything in the NFHS books.

5.3.3 rule book and case book.

I'm in NW Ohio

[ilyazhito]

This question came up at our most recent local association meeting - Ohio.  After a failed 4th down attempt - do you leave the ball where it lies and go the other way 1st & 10, or do you move the ball the length of the ball so the "nose" of the ball rests where the "nose" of the ball from the previous down ended and go the other way?  We had a discussion about whether or not the "nose" of the ball matters when placing it for the next series of downs.  I could not find anything in the NFHS books.

Thanks,

MClays99

A series after a turnover on downs is a specific exception to the idea that each series should start on a yard line. Thus, move the chains around the ball, so that the old front stake becomes the rear stake. If the ball was in a side zone at the end of the 4th down play, use the chains to move the ball to the nearest hash mark.

[refjeff]

A series after a turnover on downs is a specific exception to the idea that each series should start on a yard line. Thus, move the chains around the ball, so that the old front stake becomes the rear stake. If the ball was in a side zone at the end of the 4th down play, use the chains to move the ball to the nearest hash mark.

  If you had to measure, yes. 

Otherwise, no.

[Curious]

The OP asks about a change of possession after an "failed 4th down attempt". Obviously the author is talking about a running/pass play - to which the Forum answered ad nauseum...

However, if this is an unsuccessful field goal attempt that becomes (1) dead in the field of play or (2) the end zone, the placement is (1) the spot where the ball becomes dead and (2) anywhere along the 20 yd line at team B/R's choice.

[KWH]

When the completion of a third down play allows for it, consider placing the ball for 4th down with its tail touching a line?
That way, should A fail to meet the line to gain via an incomplete pass, you get the ball right where you want it and you never moved it.

Old guys drool!

[refjeff]

When the completion of a third down play allows for it, consider placing the ball for 4th down with its tail touching a line?
That way, should A fail to meet the line to gain via an incomplete pass, you get the ball right where you want it and you never moved it.

Old guys drool!

Again we are placing a team at a disadvantage to make it easier for us.

I don't get it.

[ElvisLives]

…you get the ball right where you want it…

Wow. I missed the memo that told us that this is our game, not the players, and we get to do what we want for our personal expedience.

That is nothing less than simple selfish laziness, and anybody that condones this type of action should be ashamed. I’d like to say more, but I’ll leave it at that.

[HLinNC]

When I work H, after an incomplete 4th down pass, I will go to the down marker and tell the box man to move it from my heel to my toe going the new direction.  My foot may not be the exact length of the football but it is close enough.  I signal the U that I've already got the new spot ad we're off.

[PABJNR]

My opinion on using field marking are use them when you can. After kicks, Long first down, etc.  critical spots such as near the LTG or inside the 10, coming in or going out should be placed exact.  If  a new series does not start “on a tick”, in these situations, so be it.  Basically use the field markings to make the game run smoother where you can, but some spots are critical and a foot can be a really big deal. 


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[CalhounLJ]

When I work H, after an incomplete 4th down pass, I will go to the down marker and tell the box man to move it from my heel to my toe going the new direction.  My foot may not be the exact length of the football but it is close enough.  I signal the U that I've already got the new spot ad we're off.

This is our mechanic


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[CalhounLJ]

When the completion of a third down play allows for it, consider placing the ball for 4th down with its tail touching a line?
That way, should A fail to meet the line to gain via an incomplete pass, you get the ball right where you want it and you never moved it.

Old guys drool!

This is not well thought out at all.


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[ilyazhito]

  If you had to measure, yes. 

Otherwise, no.

Chances are that there will be a measurement if it's 4th down and the play is extremely close to the line to gain. I described the case if there was a measurement. If for whatever reason there is no measurement, take one of the incoming team's balls and place it on a hash mark in line with the outgoing ball. Then return the outgoing ball.

[riffraft]

On a 4th down incomplete pass they gain the length of the ball. So the chain and box should move. I cannot find in the rules or the mechanics anything about moving the ball to a hash mark.

Their is no mechanic to do it.  It is done as a matter of convience and making things easier where the length of the football doesn't really matter.

[CalhounLJ]

I’m probably missing something, but it seems obvious to me that if A doesn’t reach the line to gain, the chains would have to be reset out of necessity. Because the front chain marks the line to gain. If team A doesn’t reach that point, then the chains would need to be moved back to the dead ball spot.

This seems like fly poop in the pepper shaker stuff to me.

Having said that, we leave the ball where it is and set the chains at the foremost point in the direction we are heading, which used to be the rearmost point in the Direction A was heading.


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