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Author Topic: Pancake Block  (Read 23771 times)

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Offline fudilligas

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Pancake Block
« on: September 22, 2022, 10:35:18 PM »
Is it a legal block for an offensive lineman to lay on top of a defensive player, spread eagled and not grasping any part of the player....If not what would it be considered??.....Can it be holding if the player is not grasping any part of the defensive player??
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Offline bossman72

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2022, 10:48:30 PM »
I would not call that holding, but it could easily rise to the level of a UNR ("giving 'em the business").

I would sternly warn the player the first time he does it and try to prevent this action in the future.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Pancake Block
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2022, 05:57:08 AM »
Quote from: bossman72 on September 22, 2022, 10:48:30 PM
I would not call that holding, but it could easily rise to the level of a UNR ("giving 'em the business").

I would sternly warn the player the first time he does it and try to prevent this action in the future.
We had this last Friday night. I warned him the first time, threw a flag for Unsportsmanlike conduct the next. He stopped doing it.  Plus, it was completely away from the play. On the other side.

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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2022, 10:23:17 AM »
It literally can't be unsportsmanlike under Fed Rules.  It's either unnecessary roughness or its nothing. 
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2022, 11:09:28 AM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 10:23:17 AM
It literally can't be unsportsmanlike under Fed Rules.  It's either unnecessary roughness or its nothing.

I would have to agree after being corrected several times in the past in that Unsportsmanlike cannot be a "physical" foul under NFHS rules so we would have to have UNR or if the play contained some added "verbiage" we could go with the UNS.   ;D
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Pancake Block
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2022, 11:20:07 AM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 10:23:17 AM
It literally can't be unsportsmanlike under Fed Rules.  It's either unnecessary roughness or its nothing.

It was last Friday night. Will be next Friday too if it happens. I realize UNS is not a contact foul, but laying on someone not letting them up is not a contact foul either...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 12:18:13 PM by CalhounLJ »
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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2022, 12:19:06 PM »
Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 23, 2022, 11:20:07 AM
It was last Friday night. Will be next Friday too if it happens. I realize UNS is not a contact foul, but laying on someone not letting them up is not a contact foul either...

Plus, the idea that UNS can't include any contact is a fallacy. Riddle me this - If a player pushes an official, are you going to call UNR? or UNS? I have unsportsmanlike with an ejection.

100% WRONG AGAIN!  Good grief dude.  Read the book! hEaDbAnG

9-4-2 Illegal Personal Contact  "No player or nonplayer shall intentionally contact a game official". 
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2022, 12:50:26 PM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 12:19:06 PM
100% WRONG AGAIN!  Good grief dude.  Read the book! hEaDbAnG

9-4-2 Illegal Personal Contact  "No player or nonplayer shall intentionally contact a game official".

Not exactly, "100 Wrong" because both 9-5-1-c (following an official's instruction) and 9-4-3-g describe circumstances that, depending on the unique action being observed, very well satisfy the offense described by "examples" included in the respective rule (which include the caveat, ""Examples are but not limited too:". )
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 12:55:12 PM by AlUpstateNY »
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2022, 01:10:29 PM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 12:19:06 PM
100% WRONG AGAIN!  Good grief dude.  Read the book! hEaDbAnG

9-4-2 Illegal Personal Contact  "No player or nonplayer shall intentionally contact a game official".

Need to be very careful trying to cherry pick individual rules.  The NFHS rulebook is not structured to support that.  You need to read much more carefully!
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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2022, 01:21:55 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on September 23, 2022, 01:10:29 PM
Need to be very careful trying to cherry pick individual rules.  The NFHS rulebook is not structured to support that.  You need to read much more carefully!

Need to be more careful calling a foul something that it isn't.  Especially when the rule book addresses it specifically and exactly on point.  If you call contact with a ref unsportsmanlike you are wrong.  PERIOD.
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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2022, 01:31:19 PM »
How in the blue hell did we get from laying on an opponent to intentionally contacting a game official?
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2022, 01:34:46 PM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 01:21:55 PM
Need to be more careful calling a foul something that it isn't.  Especially when the rule book addresses it specifically and exactly on point.  If you call contact with a ref unsportsmanlike you are wrong.  PERIOD.

If you don't call intentional contact with a game official an unsportsmanlike act then you missed the whole overriding guideline of NFHS rules.  Sorry, but that is a fact.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2022, 01:35:28 PM »
Quote from: HLinNC on September 23, 2022, 01:31:19 PM
How in the blue hell did we get from laying on an opponent to intentionally contacting a game official?

Not really sure but here we are!  ;D
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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2022, 01:37:26 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on September 23, 2022, 01:34:46 PM
If you don't call intentional contact with a game official an unsportsmanlike act then you missed the whole overriding guideline of NFHS rules.  Sorry, but that is a fact.

So just ignore the specific rule then?  That's your theory?  The rule enacted to cover the exact thing you are calling is meaningless?  Then why is it there???  Sorry, but you are wrong.
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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2022, 01:38:04 PM »
Quote from: HLinNC on September 23, 2022, 01:31:19 PM
How in the blue hell did we get from laying on an opponent to intentionally contacting a game official?

Ask Calhoun
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2022, 02:11:28 PM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 01:37:26 PM
So just ignore the specific rule then?  That's your theory?  The rule enacted to cover the exact thing you are calling is meaningless?  Then why is it there???  Sorry, but you are wrong.

Thank you for you opinion.
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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2022, 02:14:36 PM »
Only because I love a good online argument discussion...

Instead of contacting an official, a player shoves an opposing team's coach, during a play. 
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Offline HLinNC

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2022, 02:21:22 PM »
Quote
9-4-2 Illegal Personal Contact  "No player or nonplayer shall intentionally contact a game official".

You're the one that brought it up. 
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2022, 02:37:04 PM »
Quote from: HLinNC on September 23, 2022, 02:21:22 PM
You're the one that brought it up.
I actually brought it up. Posted it and then deleted it. I’ll admit that the letter of the law would call that illegal personal contact. But there’s more to officiating than just the letter. Maybe one day lawdog will realize that. Btw, that’s a really great descriptive user name.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2022, 02:37:48 PM »
Quote from: dammitbobby on September 23, 2022, 02:14:36 PM
Only because I love a good online argument discussion...

Instead of contacting an official, a player shoves an opposing team's coach, during a play.
I’m throwing for UNS if I see it.


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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2022, 03:49:39 PM »
Quote from: HLinNC on September 23, 2022, 02:21:22 PM
You're the one that brought it up.

Read what I responded to, the quote in my post, not his.  He deleted it because I'm right.  So ya, try again.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Pancake Block
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2022, 03:51:23 PM »
Quote from: lawdog on September 23, 2022, 03:49:39 PM
Right what I responded to, the quote in my post, not his.  He deleted it because I'm right.  So ya, try again.
No you’re not. I deleted it because I feared you may try to hang a hat on it and use it out of context. Which you did.


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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2022, 03:54:08 PM »
There is a lot more to officiating than knowing the rules, I absolutely agree.  One of the things that isn't there is making up rules. another that isn't there is using the wrong rule.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 05:03:34 PM by lawdog »
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Offline lawdog

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2022, 03:57:39 PM »
Quote from: CalhounLJ on September 23, 2022, 03:51:23 PM
No you’re not. I deleted it because I feared you may try to hang a hat on it and use it out of context. Which you did.


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Seriously, you have issues.  You are obsessed with ignoring the plain language of a rule so you can ignore the plain language of another rule to call it wrong.  Its pathetic.  GIve it up.  This is just ridiculous.  You can't just use the wrong rule and say I'm smarter than the rules.  No you are just doing it wrong.  So absurd.  What else do you call a completely different rule?  Do you call holding clipping?  Chop blocks blind side blocks?  I mean you can  just choose whichever rule there is and go with it and say how you have a much deeper understanding than the actual rule...  Its no different than what you are so ridiculously defending here.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pancake Block
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2022, 04:47:57 PM »
Lost in space.
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