Loose ball question - fumble beyond the neutral zone

[HLinNC]

Previous spot enforcement, loose ball play, foul occurred during the run preceding the legal forward pass.

Geez, I screwed up reading this one - starting over.  Decline and it is 4th and 5 for A at the B10.  Accept and it is 3rd and 7 1/2 at the B 12 1/2.  Does coach want to trade off 2 1/2 yards for an extra down.  This is one that you really want to make sure the sideline knows what they want.

In any event, Team A will likely take having the game clock start on the snap, even if declined with the new 3-4-7 clarification.

[bama_stripes]

I thought I knew this but: A's ball at the B 25. Third and 20. 
A12 drops back to pass.  B56 grabs and twists A72's face mask at the B27.  A12 then throws a forward pass to A80 at the B10 and A80 is downed at the B10. 
Question? Do we go half the distance or does A decline B's penalty because it was a loose ball play.  (Enforced from the previous spot or the end of the run?)
We had quite a discussion about this Friday night.  And it was under the 2:00 minute mark of the forth quarter and A was behind by 6 points with no timeouts left and 40 seconds on the clock.

If A accepts the penalty, it will be 3rd and 7.5 from the 12.5.  If they decline, it will be 4th and 5 from the 10.  In either case, they will likely choose to hold the clock until the snap.

Tough choice for A’s coach, but that’s why they get the big bucks.

[Ralph Damren]

I thought I knew this but: A's ball at the B 25. Third and 20. 
A12 drops back to pass.  B56 grabs and twists A72's face mask at the B27.  A12 then throws a forward pass to A80 at the B10 and A80 is downed at the B10. 
Question? Do we go half the distance or does A decline B's penalty because it was a loose ball play.  (Enforced from the previous spot or the end of the run?)
We had quite a discussion about this Friday night.  And it was under the 2:00 minute mark of the forth quarter and A was behind by 6 points with no timeouts left and 40 seconds on the clock.

This would be a loose ball play as foul came before the pass with the same reason, you can't have roughing the passer. Choice would be : 3rd & 7 1/2 if accepted,; 4th & 5 if declined. Both choices would allow A to request clock to start on snap.

[animalspooker]

Could someone please give an example where the start of the loose ball, beyond the neutral zone, would be spot of penalty enforcement...hence, why we beanbag it?

[animalspooker]

Also, is the 'Enforcement from the dead ball spot' only when it's a Personal Foul, Roughing penalty (9-4-4)?

[Ralph Damren]

Could someone please give an example where the start of the loose ball, beyond the neutral zone, would be spot of penalty enforcement...hence, why we beanbag it?

This happened in my game last century......

(1) K kicks off, ball fielded by R1 @ R;'s 10;
(2) R2 slugs K1 @ 50;
(3) R1 fumbles @ R's 20;
(4) R3 scoops up loose ball and heads to paydirt  .

This is also a good illustration of the "WHEN" of the 4 W's of penalty enforcement. It was determined that the flag was after B1 had fielded the ball, but before the fumble was recovered. The basic spot was R's 20 and was bean baged. Results of play placed ball at R'10. IF FOULHAD OCCURRED :

(1) Before R1 had fielded kick = previous spot, K kicks from R's 45;
(2) After R3 had fielded fumble = ABO basic spot @ 50, R's ball 1/10 @ R's 35.

REMEMBER, GUYS WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE...

PS: THERE IS A FIFTH W...IF A DELAY OF GAME IS CALL IN THE LAST MINUTE OF A 40-0 GAME...WHY

[Fatso]

Could someone please give an example where the start of the loose ball, beyond the neutral zone, would be spot of penalty enforcement...hence, why we beanbag it?

Runner fumbles the ball beyond the NZ, I believe the basic spot is the end of the run (spot where ball became loose).  Enforcement would be from the spot where the fumble occurred unless it was on the offense and was behind the end of the run, then it would be a spot foul.   Please someone correct me if necessary. 

[Fatso]

Also, is the 'Enforcement from the dead ball spot' only when it's a Personal Foul, Roughing penalty (9-4-4)?

Remember, roughing the passer is 'dead ball spot'.  All other roughing fouls (kicker, snapper, center) are 'previous spot'.

[HLinNC]

The easiest, most common example- RB A32 has a 15 yard run from the A20 to the A35 yl.  As B50 tackles A32, he grasps and turns A32's facemask and A32 fumbles.  The ball rolls to the A40 where B20 falls on the loose ball.  The HL drops his beanbag at the A35 yl. and the BJ throws his flag for the facemask foul, which lands at the A38 yl.  The enforcement spot is the A35 yl which is the end of the related run.

[TSHunt]

I thought I knew this but: A's ball at the B 25. Third and 20. 
A12 drops back to pass.  B56 grabs and twists A72's face mask at the B27.  A12 then throws a forward pass to A80 at the B10 and A80 is downed at the B10. 
Question? Do we go half the distance or does A decline B's penalty because it was a loose ball play.  (Enforced from the previous spot or the end of the run?)
We had quite a discussion about this Friday night.  And it was under the 2:00 minute mark of the forth quarter and A was behind by 6 points with no timeouts left and 40 seconds on the clock.

I've got the facemask during the loose ball portion of the play and enforcement options are to accept for 3rd & 7.5 at the 12.5 or decline for 4th & 5 at the 10. Foul is only by defense so play clock is 40 seconds and A gets option to start clock on snap or RFP since clock is rolling under 2.

[PABJNR]

1 & 10 @ A20.  Qb runs an option pitches (backward pass) to a back at the A23.  The Back continues to advance to B30. A hold by A prior to the pitch (backward pass) basic spot is where the pitch (backward pass) occurred (A23). A hold by A after the pitch (backward pass) was possessed the basic spot is B30, the end of the run.  Both fouls could be all-but-one, but you need a bean bag down at the spot of the pitch and need to know when the foul occurred, I.e. which running play.  A hold by A at A25 prior to the pitch would be enforced from the A23.  A hold by A at A25 after possession of the pitch would be enforced from the A25.  A face mask by B before the pitch would be enforced from the A23, a face mask by B after possession of the pitch would be enforced from the B30, as they are basic spot enforcements.


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[Ralph Damren]

One day we'll convince them!  haha.

If anybody was interested in the proposal, here it is below.  It would make runs that end behind the LOS have the basic spot as the previous spot.  This would also reclassify ALL fumbles and backward passes as RUNS.  So really the only time we would have a loose ball play would be if there is a legal pass or kick.

Underlines are additions and strikethroughs are deletions.

Rule:
10-4-2. The basic spot is the previous spot…
          d. When the related run ends behind the neutral zone before a change of team possession.

10-4-4. The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2, unless 10-4-2d applies.

10-3-1. A loose-ball play is action during:
          c.  A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

Rationale:
     This change would solve an inequity in enforcement of defensive fouls where the run ends behind the neutral zone and also clean up the definitions of run and loose ball plays.  Currently, for example, if a QB gets sacked 12 yards behind the LOS, and there was Defensive Holding on the play, the foul is enforced from the end of the run, and the offense would lose 2 yards on a play where there was a defensive foul.  This change would help the Offensive/Defensive balance in penalty enforcement while keeping the All-But-One principle in-tact.
     Additionally, this would help clean up definitions of loose ball and running play.  It’s very confusing to new officials when we teach that fumbles beyond the LOS are run plays and fumbles behind the LOS are loose ball plays.  Under the change to 10-3-1, ALL backward passes and fumbles would be classified as RUNS, which would make understanding the rule better for new officials.

Resubmitted

[AlUpstateNY]

Resubmitted

There are needles in EVERY Haystack, some bigger than others, and only God could make an absolutely needle free haystack.

[NICrew-TA]

Good point, 'Bama & Calhoun. That got me in trouble once (could have caused a team a state championship). IMHO, there are some useful tosses of your bean bag behind the LOS.....

(1) On a sack, the QB is usually driven back a yard or two from his forward progress. I'll mark the spot of forward progress with my bean bag , U will go to that spot  as I retrieve the ball and flip it to him.

(2) If a scrambling QB is around the LOS, I'll bean bag the spot of his pass and then view to see if he was downfield.

(3) If the QB MAY be guilty of IG, a bean bag will help sell the call and set an enforcement spot if then a flag is needed.

Your bean bag can be a useful tool, be sure to take advantage of it.

Great examples of using a bag behind the LOS - I had an IG that I did not bag (oops) - then realized we had an illegal pass that is enforced from the end of the run. We guessed on the spot - filmed showed us off by 2-yds. Lesson learned.