Loose ball question - fumble beyond the neutral zone

[Fatso]

I read this in a penalty enforcement publication - A loose-ball play is action during a free kick or scrimmage kick, a legal forward pass, a backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble by team A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

Is a fumble beyond the neutral zone not considered a loose ball? 

[HLinNC]

The ball is loose.  It is not a Loose Ball Play.  You have the definition in your post.  Look up the definition of a Running Play.
Loose Ball Play and Running Play are elements of penalty enforcement.

A loose ball is a status.

[CalhounLJ]

I read this in a penalty enforcement publication - A loose-ball play is action during a free kick or scrimmage kick, a legal forward pass, a backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble by team A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

Is a fumble beyond the neutral zone not considered a loose ball?

No, it's considered a running play. Like HL said, the ball is simply loose during a running play. Any foul while the ball is loose is connected to the run that occurred before the ball became loose. The basic spot for penalty enforcement in this situation is the end of the related run - the spot where the ball became loose. That's why we bean bag the fumble.

[Ralph Damren]

And be sure to recall WHEN. Easy way to remember is a loose ball play is when the ball becomes loose BEHIND the LOS. When the ball becomes loose BEYOND the LOS ,the basic (enforcement) spot is the end of the related run..hense the bean bag...a play can have several ends of run during a play and when the foul occurred will determine the basic spot for that end of run.

[bama_stripes]

No, it's considered a running play. Like HL said, the ball is simply loose during a running play. Any foul while the ball is loose is connected to the run that occurred before the ball became loose. The basic spot for penalty enforcement in this situation is the end of the related run - the spot where the ball became loose. That's why we bean bag the fumble.

It’s also why no bean bag is necessary behind the LOS — the basic spot will be the previous spot.

[CalhounLJ]

It’s also why no bean bag is necessary behind the LOS — the basic spot will be the previous spot.

Exactly. Great point Bama.

[Ralph Damren]

Good point, 'Bama & Calhoun. That got me in trouble once (could have caused a team a state championship) . IMHO, there are some useful tosses of your bean bag behind the LOS.....

(1) On a sack, the QB is usually driven back a yard or two from his forward progress. I'll mark the spot of forward progress with my bean bag , U will go to that spot  as I retrieve the ball and flip it to him.

(2) If a scrambling QB is around the LOS , I'll bean bag the spot of his pass and then view to see if he was downfield.

(3) If the QB MAY be guilty of IG, a bean bag will help sell the call and set an enforcement spot if then a flag is needed.

Your bean bag can be a useful tool, be sure to take advantage of it.

[Fatso]

No, it's considered a running play. Like HL said, the ball is simply loose during a running play. Any foul while the ball is loose is connected to the run that occurred before the ball became loose. The basic spot for penalty enforcement in this situation is the end of the related run - the spot where the ball became loose. That's why we bean bag the fumble.

Got it. Thank you.

[Fatso]

It’s also why no bean bag is necessary behind the LOS — the basic spot will be the previous spot.

If A1 fumbles beyond the LOS say at A30, during the loose ball B commits a foul, then A2 recovers the fumble at A35.  Is the end of run A30 or A35?   (wondering if no change of possession means anything as far as this is concerned).  thx

[bama_stripes]

If A1 fumbles beyond the LOS say at A30, during the loose ball B commits a foul, then A2 recovers the fumble at A35.  Is the end of run A30 or A35?   (wondering if no change of possession means anything as far as this is concerned).  thx

It’s the A-30, the end of the related run.  That’s exactly why we bag the spot of a fumble past the LOS — it might become a penalty enforcement spot.

[Derek Teigen]

If a quarterback muffs a snap and picks up the ball and starts to scramble behind the line of scrimmage where he is facemasked by a defender.  Is this a loose ball play and so the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.

[ncwingman]

If a quarterback muffs a snap and picks up the ball and starts to scramble behind the line of scrimmage where he is facemasked by a defender.  Is this a loose ball play and so the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.

The snap itself is a "loose ball play". Adding a muff to it doesn't change anything. However, the basic spot would be the previous spot if the foul occurred *while the ball was loose*. Seeing as the ball was in player possession when the foul occurred and the ball did not become loose after that, the foul occurred during a running play and it is enforced from the end of the run.

Loose ball enforcement only comes into play if the foul occurs during or before the ball is loose during the loose ball play segment.

It's not dissimilar to a facemask after a completed forward pass. A88 catches the ball at the A20, runs to the A30 where he's tackled by the facemask. You'd enforce from the A30 not the previous spot, despite there being a loose ball component to the play.

[Derek Teigen]

Yes but my understanding is if there is a fumble behind the line of scrimmage it all becomes a loose ball play. I think that is why many officials say there is no need to bag a fumble spot behind the LOS. 

[ncwingman]

Yes but my understanding is if there is a fumble behind the line of scrimmage it all becomes a loose ball play. I think that is why many officials say there is no need to bag a fumble spot behind the LOS.

To be deliberate here (with minor edits for clarity):

A loose ball play is action *during*:

a) A free of scrimmage kick
b) A legal forward pass
c) A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone
NOTE - The run(s) that *precede* such examples are considered action during the loose ball play.

Once the ball is no longer loose -- that is, the kick is recovered, the pass is caught or the fumble recovered, the loose ball segment of the play has ended and a running play begins.

If the ball becomes loose again under one of those conditions, then all action prior to *that* loose ball gets incorporated into a new, greater loose ball play segment. During a down, you can have a loose ball play followed by a running play (or plays). There can be many "running plays" during a down, but only one "loose ball play".

For example:

Center snaps the ball. The ball is loose and we have a loose ball play.

QB receives the snap. The ball is no longer loose. The QB is now running with the ball. All action before the receipt of the ball is the "loose ball play" segment.

The QB fumbles behind the LOS. There is now a greater loose ball play that incorporates all action since the snap.

The QB recovers the fumble. The loose ball play is over and a running play starts.

A56 holds B55. Since the QB is currently running with the ball, this foul occurs during a running play. The basic spot would be the end of the run.

The QB throws a legal forward pass. This resets the "loose ball play" to encompass all action up to this point. The holding foul is now during a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot.

A88 catches the pass beyond the LOS. The loose ball play is over and a running play begins.

A88 advances 5 yards where A80 blocks B77 in the back. The foul is during a running play, and the basic spot is the end of the related run.

A88 fumbles the ball 20 yards downfield. This spot is the end of the related run which is the basic spot for the BIB foul by A80. We need a bean bag here to remember this spot. We did NOT need a bean bag at the spot of the QB's fumble earlier since that established a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot -- NOT the end of the related run (spot of the fumble).

A88's fumble, being beyond the LOS, does NOT combine with previous action to extend the loose ball play. However, A88 can recover the fumble and continue to advance, starting another running play during the down.

[Derek Teigen]

1.  So a QB scrambling is face masked behind the line of scrimmage and then he escapes the grasp but then fumbles.  Now everything up until that point is bundled into a loose ball play and the penalty is enforced from the previous spot?  But if the quarterback does not fumble the spot is at the end of the run?  This doesn't make sense to me.

2.  Under your example of a hold during a run or a pass play my understanding is it is a spot foul if behind the line of scrimmage, if beyond the LOS then is is enforced under the all but one principal.

[PABJNR]

1.  So a QB scrambling is face masked behind the line of scrimmage and then he escapes the grasp but then fumbles.  Now everything up until that point is bundled into a loose ball play and the penalty is enforced from the previous spot?  But if the quarterback does not fumble the spot is at the end of the run?  This doesn't make sense to me.

2.  Under your example of a hold during a run or a pass play my understanding is it is a spot foul if behind the line of scrimmage, if beyond the LOS then is is enforced under the all but one principal.

1.  While it may not make sense this is the proper penalty enforcement.  I think it is Bossman who is in favor of a rules change that makes fouls by B behind the LOS be enforced from the previous spot. 

2.  The basic spot is always key to penalty enforcement.  The all-but-one enforcement essentially states (unless of special enforcement) all fouls are enforced from the basic spot, except fouls by the offense (A) that occur behind the basic spot.  It may, and usually is a spot foul behind the LOS, but not always.  For instance 1 & 10 by A on A40YL.  Hold by A53 on the A38YL,  A32 is tacked on the A35.  The basic spot for the play is the A35 (End of the run), the foul by A did not occur behind the basic spot so the penalty will be enforced from the A35 and it will be 1 & 25 from the A25YL if the penalty is accepted.

Master the basic spot and penalty enforcement will become easy for you.

[Ralph Damren]

Bossman assisted me in proposing a rule change a few years back that enforce B fouls from the previous spot that occurred on plays that ended behind the LOS . This would not only make the loose ball/ running play more reasonable but include such as a prime reciever being illegally held causing the QB to be sacked. It ran into a roadblock from a group that would only consider it if fouls by A behind the LOS also as previous spot fouls. SOMEDAY....... 

[bama_stripes]

It ran into a roadblock from a group that would only consider it if fouls by A behind the LOS also as previous spot fouls.

I wouldn’t have a problem with this.

The large majority of such fouls by A are for holding, and it really doesn’t matter that the hold occurred at the LOS or several yards behind the LOS.

[AlUpstateNY]

I wouldn’t have a problem with this.

The large majority of such fouls by A are for holding, and it really doesn’t matter that the hold occurred at the LOS or several yards behind the LOS.

Enforcing holding fouls from the previous spot would only encourage MORE holding, especially when offensive backs are retreating into their own backfield (passing, scrambling, sweeps, reverses, loose balls, etc. and negate an honest advantage gained by the defense.

[CalhounLJ]

I wouldn’t have a problem with this.

The large majority of such fouls by A are for holding, and it really doesn’t matter that the hold occurred at the LOS or several yards behind the LOS.

I had a situation last night that tells a different story. First play from scrimmage, A is flushed out of the pocket at the -32. He literally scrambles all over the field, back to the 1. A72, trying to protect him, tackles a B player at the 5, which frees the qb. He runs back to the -30 and is tackled there. To mark that off from previous spot would have been an injustice to B.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

I had a situation last night that tells a different story. First play from scrimmage, A is flushed out of the pocket at the -32. He literally scrambles all over the field, back to the 1. A72, trying to protect him, tackles a B player at the 5, which frees the qb. He runs back to the -30 and is tackled there. To mark that off from previous spot would have been an injustice to B.
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Really?  But the circular logic here borders on the absurd!  If the QB fumbled while being tackled then landed on the fumble recovering it or threw a last second pass as he was being tackled where would the enforcement be from?  The real problem here IMHO is the whole absurd "loose ball play" concept defining the enforcement spot.  How does that make any logical sense?  After reading and rereading and rereading again ncwingman's previous post, many times, the whole loose ball play concept IMHO is very deeply flawed.  Again IMHO this has absolutely nothing to do with fairness or failing to acknowledge a good play.

[bama_stripes]

I had a situation last night that tells a different story. First play from scrimmage, A is flushed out of the pocket at the -32. He literally scrambles all over the field, back to the 1. A72, trying to protect him, tackles a B player at the 5, which frees the qb. He runs back to the -30 and is tackled there. To mark that off from previous spot would have been an injustice to B.

OK, but that’s an extreme outlier.  And we don’t know for certain that the B player would have brought down the QB absent the hold (see: Alabama vs Texas this year).

Making the previous spot the enforcement spot for fouls behind the LOS is simple and consistent.

[CalhounLJ]

Really?  But the circular logic here borders on the absurd!  If the QB fumbled while being tackled then landed on the fumble recovering it or threw a last second pass as he was being tackled where would the enforcement be from?  The real problem here IMHO is the whole absurd "loose ball play" concept defining the enforcement spot.  How does that make any logical sense?  After reading and rereading and rereading again ncwingman's previous post, many times, the whole loose ball play concept IMHO is very deeply flawed.  Again IMHO this has absolutely nothing to do with fairness or failing to acknowledge a good play.

The enforcement would be the spot of the foul. The 5. According to the all but one principle.


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[bossman72]

Bossman assisted me in proposing a rule change a few years back that enforce B fouls from the previous spot that occurred on plays that ended behind the LOS . This would not only make the loose ball/ running play more reasonable but include such as a prime reciever being illegally held causing the QB to be sacked. It ran into a roadblock from a group that would only consider it if fouls by A behind the LOS also as previous spot fouls. SOMEDAY....... 

One day we'll convince them!  haha.

If anybody was interested in the proposal, here it is below.  It would make runs that end behind the LOS have the basic spot as the previous spot.  This would also reclassify ALL fumbles and backward passes as RUNS.  So really the only time we would have a loose ball play would be if there is a legal pass or kick.

Underlines are additions and strikethroughs are deletions.

Rule:
10-4-2. The basic spot is the previous spot…
          d. When the related run ends behind the neutral zone before a change of team possession.

10-4-4. The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2, unless 10-4-2d applies.

10-3-1. A loose-ball play is action during:
          c.  A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

Rationale:
     This change would solve an inequity in enforcement of defensive fouls where the run ends behind the neutral zone and also clean up the definitions of run and loose ball plays.  Currently, for example, if a QB gets sacked 12 yards behind the LOS, and there was Defensive Holding on the play, the foul is enforced from the end of the run, and the offense would lose 2 yards on a play where there was a defensive foul.  This change would help the Offensive/Defensive balance in penalty enforcement while keeping the All-But-One principle in-tact.
     Additionally, this would help clean up definitions of loose ball and running play.  It’s very confusing to new officials when we teach that fumbles beyond the LOS are run plays and fumbles behind the LOS are loose ball plays.  Under the change to 10-3-1, ALL backward passes and fumbles would be classified as RUNS, which would make understanding the rule better for new officials.

[Bubba Ump]

I thought I knew this but: A's ball at the B 25. Third and 20. 
A12 drops back to pass.  B56 grabs and twists A72's face mask at the B27.  A12 then throws a forward pass to A80 at the B10 and A80 is downed at the B10. 
Question? Do we go half the distance or does A decline B's penalty because it was a loose ball play.  (Enforced from the previous spot or the end of the run?)
We had quite a discussion about this Friday night.  And it was under the 2:00 minute mark of the forth quarter and A was behind by 6 points with no timeouts left and 40 seconds on the clock.