Author Topic: So many things wrong here  (Read 29231 times)

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Offline Bubba Ump

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So many things wrong here
« on: October 16, 2022, 11:43:31 PM »
Count the mistakes by the drew.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iotxlhBwGgs
I think the only person who try's to get it right is the LJ but he gets talked out of it by the HL.  The reaction by the U is classic.  I fell out of my chair watching him.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2022, 06:52:40 AM »
Whew.  I'm going to have to watch it again when I get home from work.

Lhaskins

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2022, 10:30:05 AM »
I think you posted the wrong film clip. This is a film clip of a blocked FG.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2022, 10:51:33 AM »
well I think the crew got it right.  nobody blew the play dead and according to 6.2.3 any K player may catch or recover while it is in or behind the neutral zone and advance....yes the umpire thought the game was over and signaled no good like it was a try but everybody allowed the play to continue.

what crew errors do you see?

Offline red viking

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2022, 11:02:00 AM »
It's beyond the LOS but within the "expanded neutral zone." If it was a little farther downfield I'd definitely say he can't advance it but not sure about that particular location - about 1 yard beyond the LOS.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 11:13:07 AM by red viking »

Offline refjeff

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2022, 11:32:11 AM »
well I think the crew got it right.  nobody blew the play dead and according to 6.2.3 any K player may catch or recover while it is in or behind the neutral zone and advance....yes the umpire thought the game was over and signaled no good like it was a try but everybody allowed the play to continue.

what crew errors do you see?
By the time K picked up the ball it was beyond the down box, which means it was beyond the neutral zone, which means it was dead. 

Offline TxBJ

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2022, 11:39:02 AM »
I'm glad this was posted.  I saw it this weekend in an article on the CBS Sports website that pointed to the video on Twitter.  Someone in the comments pointed out that the ball was recovered beyond the NZ and should have been dead (which is what I was thinking as an NCAA rules guy).  Someone else stated that the NZ is expanded 3 yards on kicks in NFHS so this was a legal recovery and advance.  Is that correct?

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2022, 11:40:53 AM »
The neutral zone expands 2 yards beyond the LOS.  The ball was picked up within this area of the expanded neutral zone.  I don't see any problem here do you?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2022, 12:01:21 PM »
 (6-2-3) K can catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is in or behind the neutral zone and advance, not the expanded neutral zone.
 
The ball appears to be beyond the down marker when K picks it up.    This would appear to be first touching by K as the blocked punt behind the line by R would be ignored.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 03:58:03 PM by HLinNC »

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2022, 01:28:39 PM »
The only feedback I can offer, is mechanics - H should have held the line to definitely determine whether or not the ball crossed the LOS, instead of drifting away from the ball, and could have hustled more going to the goal line.  Immediately after signaling touchdown, he should have come racing in to discuss with other crew mates - huddle up, kick all the players and coaches out of the immediate area, and make a decision.

The other officials appear to have no idea what is going on, and need to officiate all the way to the end of the play.  When there's confusion like that, the worst thing you can do (IMO) is look like you don't know.

 I'm assuming it's standard mechanics for this association to just have one official under the goalposts.  The BJ should have moved up to the GL when it was obvious that something hinky was going on, and all the other officials (looks like 5-man crew) need to be vigilant and live ball AND dead ball officiate until it gets sorted out. 

Offline PABJNR

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2022, 02:21:35 PM »
6 man crew in that part of PA. SJ and FJ under posts


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2022, 02:26:48 PM »
The neutral zone expands 2 yards beyond the LOS.  The ball was picked up within this area of the expanded neutral zone.  I don't see any problem here do you?

The expanded neutral zone does, but K may only recover in or behind the "normal" neutral zone.

The only feedback I can offer, is mechanics - H should have held the line to definitely determine whether or not the ball crossed the LOS, instead of drifting away from the ball, and could have hustled more going to the goal line.  Immediately after signaling touchdown, he should have come racing in to discuss with other crew mates - huddle up, kick all the players and coaches out of the immediate area, and make a decision.

The other officials appear to have no idea what is going on, and need to officiate all the way to the end of the play.  When there's confusion like that, the worst thing you can do (IMO) is look like you don't know.

 I'm assuming it's standard mechanics for this association to just have one official under the goalposts.  The BJ should have moved up to the GL when it was obvious that something hinky was going on, and all the other officials (looks like 5-man crew) need to be vigilant and live ball AND dead ball officiate until it gets sorted out. 

I agree that the H should have held the line better here. However, I don't think I see anybody actually signal TD. H only makes it down to the 6 and whoever is in the back is just nonchalantly walking forward making no signals either. All officials just seem to be sauntering off with no purpose. Looks bad man.

I recognize this game as being in Pennsylvania, and I believe they use a six man crew -- so there's probably two deep wings under the goal posts (FJ/SJ, no BJ in 6 man) although I only see one come out from the end line. Or maybe, like the rest of us, an officiating shortage has reduced them to five?

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2022, 02:31:14 PM »
I agree that the H should have held the line better here. However, I don't think I see anybody actually signal TD. H only makes it down to the 6 and whoever is in the back is just nonchalantly walking forward making no signals either.
It's hard to tell but I thought the H held his hands up at the 6.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2022, 02:42:01 PM »
It's hard to tell but I thought the H held his hands up at the 6.

Which, personally... I think is even worse. You don't score points at the 6. You should only signal TD at the goal line or in the end zone. However, I'm not going to argue that point on the internet too much. That's a bit more of a subjective preference, so I'm not offended if people disagree.

I was also trying to see what happened when the whole team started celebrating, thinking somebody made a signal at that point, but the H had already turned back by then. I'm guessing somebody said something to the team rather than making an overt signal.

Offline MAFBRef

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2022, 03:24:32 PM »
It looked to me like the crew had a collective brain fart and defaulted into a failed extra point mode.  At least there was a little recognition, probably following an "oh s**t!" realization, and a weak attempt to get back into the play.  It's why we need to constantly communicate as crews to help and avoid these type of things.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2022, 04:09:22 PM »
There are a number of bad looks in this play.  The crew did not look good.  However, the HL does hold his position and watches the ball until it is picked up (he does crawl down a couple of yards).   He then follows the BC and when the BC crosses the goal line the HL points at the official in the end zone letting him know that he stayed in bounds.  He wanted the BJ, S, F, whoever it was to make the TD signal.   Of course he was 8 yards deep and had no idea what was going on.   The HL did not bean bag the first touching which could have solved this problem real quick. 

I am amazed that they got it right.

Offline refjeff

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2022, 04:41:42 PM »
There are a number of bad looks in this play.  The crew did not look good.  However, the HL does hold his position and watches the ball until it is picked up (he does crawl down a couple of yards).   He then follows the BC and when the BC crosses the goal line the HL points at the official in the end zone letting him know that he stayed in bounds.  He wanted the BJ, S, F, whoever it was to make the TD signal.   Of course he was 8 yards deep and had no idea what was going on.   The HL did not bean bag the first touching which could have solved this problem real quick. 

I am amazed that they got it right.
Except they didn't get it right.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2022, 05:20:40 PM »
What did I miss?  They didn't allow the score and ended the game. 

Offline refjeff

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2022, 05:52:01 PM »
What did I miss?  They didn't allow the score and ended the game.
I can't understand the last part of the referee's explanation, but the kids in white seem very happy about losing the game.

Offline Bubba Ump

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2022, 06:22:46 PM »
There is no expanded neutral zone.  The ball must be "in or behind" 6:2:3  I would agree that it can be clarified much better.  H needs to hold the LOS and everything past the LOS which the ball clearly is should be bagged and blown dead once it's possessed.  Tuff call but a good reminder to have a bean bag in hand on all scrimmage kicks.  Deeps need to bust BUTT to the Goal line.  U and R should give the "ball tipped" signal.  We can all learn from this and remind us ourselves that every play something crazy can happen. 

Offline Covid 22

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2022, 08:40:00 PM »
All you have to do is look at the two coaches.  The one with the white jacket is despondent after the explanation.  The coach with the black jacket jumps with joy. 

Offline ncwingman

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2022, 08:50:41 PM »
All you have to do is look at the two coaches.  The one with the white jacket is despondent after the explanation.  The coach with the black jacket jumps with joy.

Are you being serious here? I can't tell if you're taking the joke a little too far or not. Central Catholic, the away team wearing white, won the game having scored the touchdown

Lhaskins

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2022, 09:15:22 PM »
Yes Many issues that we can learn from !!  It looks like the ball is at the 32 yardline. - U - Signals -- NO GOOD !!! not sure if he is putting air in his Whistle. The R does nothing.   The L - works his way down the field and now has to look back at the ball.  It looks like the the K player picks up the ball at the 31. I personal think that when K picked up the ball it should have been blown dead. TUFF ONE for Sure!!!!!

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2022, 06:20:57 AM »
Here's the "official" result:  https://www.cbssports.com/general/news/watch-pennsylvania-hs-football-game-ends-wildly-as-team-advances-own-blocked-field-goal-for-game-winning-td/

Although the result is not really the point here. As has been noted no one stays at the LOS (the 32) to rule on the location of the ball in relation to the NZ. Also, no one bags the point of first touching or recovery, two of the most critical mechanics items on a scrimmage kick.  Also, it's obvious that we need to get into the rule book more since in relation to the position of a loose ball from a scrimmage kick the NZ is not "expanded".  If the L had stayed at the line a bit longer and bagged the spot where A picked up the ball this would have looked much better.
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: So many things wrong here
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2022, 10:07:17 AM »
If the L had stayed at the line a bit longer and bagged the spot where A picked up the ball this would have looked much better.

I ask this question because I believe there may be a common thread here between NCAA and NFHS rules on this issue. I believe the consensus is that, for NFHS, the ball crossed the actual neutral zone, and was possessed by a kicking team player, which makes the ball dead. If that is correct, then what is the point of dropping a spot marker (bean bag) at that spot? Spot markers are used to mark certain spots on the field, when the ball will remain alive after some event has occurred (such as a fumble, illegal touching, end of a scrimmage kick, or where possession is gained with a potential 'momentum' ruling). If the ball becomes dead at the moment of possession, then the covering official should simply signal for the clock to stop and mark the dead-ball spot with his foot, as we do for every dead-ball between the goal lines. What does dropping a spot marker at a dead-ball spot accomplish?
OK, if the covering official is uncertain if the ball should be declared dead, and he wants to allow play to continue, sure, drop a bean bag at the spot where possession was gained, and continue to officiate. Then, you can come back to that spot, if needed (although we all need to be better than that). 

My point is that, since we first got bean bags in the late 70's, 1) many Bs (in particular) still hold them in their hands on punts, and 2) bean bags get dropped at dead-ball spots frequently, both nonsensically. When we first got bean bags, NCAA officials were so afraid of NOT getting the bag down on the end of a kick, in particular, they decided to hold them in their hands on punts. That was understandable, since most officials at that level had been officiating for many years, and those guys were not at all accustomed to getting a bean bag down for ANYTHING, and certainly didn't want their jobs jeopardized because they forgot to mark the end of a kick. But, let's see....2022 minus 1978 (or so) = 44 years. Ain't many folks around that officiated football during the days before bean bags - certainly not at the NCAA level. Everybody working today - NCAA and NFHS - have had plenty of experience with bean bags. Just like your foul marker (flag), it is a tool to be used at the proper moment. Anybody holding their flag in their hand when a down starts? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller...?
What is still happening when an official carries his bean bag in his hand - NCAA and NFHS - is that, when some other event happens, for a which a bean bag is totally inappropriate, the official 'reacts' and drops/tosses his bean bag for that other event, and then he doesn't have his primary bean bag available when he does need it.
Example 1: Kicking team player commits KCI on a punt receiver. The B (with bean bag already in hand) reacts and throws his bean bag at the spot. He realizes he needs to get his flag down, so he begins grabbing for his flag, gets it out, and throws it at the spot, too. Meanwhile, the ball is bouncing around, gets touched by a kicking team player, and then recovered by a receiving team player, who begins to advance. No bean bag for either the illegal touch or the end of the kick.
Example 2: Punt receiver signals for a fair catch and makes the catch, no issues. B sounds his whistle, signals for the clock to stop, and moves to the dead-ball spot (progress being marked by a sideline official) and drops his bean bag. Why? What good does the bean bag do at that point? What's that you say? It indicates illegal touching? S16 does a much better job of that.

I see both happen frequently, every year.

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