Silly plays of the day

[ElvisLives]

No, these will never happen, but they are good for discussion purposes in fully understanding the rules.

1. Free kick, A-35. When he kicks the ball, A11 is the only player on the field for Team A. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A insisted on assuming the described formation.) The kicked ball flies directly at B77, who was positioned at the A-46, directly in front of A11, when the ball was kicked. B77 catches the ball, and begins to advance. Being very athletic, A11 is able to run, unimpeded, directly at B77, and, miraculously, tackles B77, taking B77 to the ground at the A-43, and the ball becomes dead.

Ruling:


2. Free kick, A-35. When he kicks the ball, there are four Team A players to the left of A11, and four players to his right, none in advance of the A-35. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A insisted on assuming the described formation.) B33 catches the kicked ball, and advances to the B-30, where he is, amazingly, tackled and taken to the ground by Team A players, and the ball becomes dead.

Ruling:


3. 1/10, A-25, 15:00 (1). A77 assumes a position over the ball, adjusts the ball, and, following a once-second pause, legally snaps the ball.  A77 is the only player of team A on the field at the snap and during the down. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A displayed no desire to start the down with additional players.)The snapped ball travels to the A-20, where A77, being very athletic, is able to run to the ball, recover it while upright, and, miraculously, advance to the A-30, where he runs out of bounds.

Ruling:


4. 1/10, A-25, 15:00 (1). A77 assumes a position over the ball, adjusts the ball, and, following a once-second pause by all Team A players, legally snaps the ball. At the snap, A77 has A71 and A61 to his left, with A60 and A70 to his right. Those are the only Team A players on the field at the snap and during the down. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A displayed no desire to start the down with additional players.) The snapped ball travels to the A-20, where A77, being very athletic, is able to run to the ball, recover it while upright, and, amazingly, advance to the A-30, where he runs out of bounds.

Ruling:

[ncwingman]

I'm usually a Fed guy, but I'll try my NCAA skills here:

1. Free kick, A-35. When he kicks the ball, A11 is the only player on the field for Team A. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A insisted on assuming the described formation.) The kicked ball flies directly at B77, who was positioned at the A-46, directly in front of A11, when the ball was kicked. B77 catches the ball, and begins to advance. Being very athletic, A11 is able to run, unimpeded, directly at B77, and, miraculously, tackles B77, taking B77 to the ground at the A-43, and the ball becomes dead.

Ruling:

Illegal formation on K, which is a live ball foul -- B can elect to rekick from the A-30 or add five yards to the end of the return, 1-10 at the A-38.

2. Free kick, A-35. When he kicks the ball, there are four Team A players to the left of A11, and four players to his right, none in advance of the A-35. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A insisted on assuming the described formation.) B33 catches the kicked ball, and advances to the B-30, where he is, amazingly, tackled and taken to the ground by Team A players, and the ball becomes dead.

Ruling:

Unless I'm missing something, this seems legal. Nine on the field is not a foul, and you need at least four on each side, which they do.

3. 1/10, A-25, 15:00 (1). A77 assumes a position over the ball, adjusts the ball, and, following a once-second pause, legally snaps the ball.  A77 is the only player of team A on the field at the snap and during the down. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A displayed no desire to start the down with additional players.)The snapped ball travels to the A-20, where A77, being very athletic, is able to run to the ball, recover it while upright, and, miraculously, advance to the A-30, where he runs out of bounds.

Ruling:

I think this falls under illegal formation, as A does not have five players numbered 50-79 (it would be illegal numbering in Fed rules, but that doesn't seem to be a distinct category here, or rather that's just covering two players wearing the same number).

However, would this also qualify as a planned loose ball? One could argue that recovering the ball five yards back is no longer "in the vicinity of the snapper". Both options would be live ball, five yards from the previous spot, but the planned loose ball would also include loss of down.

4. 1/10, A-25, 15:00 (1). A77 assumes a position over the ball, adjusts the ball, and, following a once-second pause by all Team A players, legally snaps the ball. At the snap, A77 has A71 and A61 to his left, with A60 and A70 to his right. Those are the only Team A players on the field at the snap and during the down. (Note: Despite the best efforts of the officials, Team A displayed no desire to start the down with additional players.) The snapped ball travels to the A-20, where A77, being very athletic, is able to run to the ball, recover it while upright, and, amazingly, advance to the A-30, where he runs out of bounds.

Ruling:

This is the same as before, but we take the illegal numbering/formation off the table, only returning to the planned loose ball question of "vicinity". I feel I'm missing the rule that specifically prohibits the snapper from recovering the snap before it is touched by any other player, but that might not be a rule.

[ElvisLives]

I'm usually a Fed guy, but I'll try my NCAA skills here:

Illegal formation on K, which is a live ball foul -- B can elect to rekick from the A-30 or add five yards to the end of the return, 1-10 at the A-38.


Unless I'm missing something, this seems legal. Nine on the field is not a foul, and you need at least four on each side, which they do.

I think this falls under illegal formation, as A does not have five players numbered 50-79 (it would be illegal numbering in Fed rules, but that doesn't seem to be a distinct category here, or rather that's just covering two players wearing the same number).

However, would this also qualify as a planned loose ball? One could argue that recovering the ball five yards back is no longer "in the vicinity of the snapper". Both options would be live ball, five yards from the previous spot, but the planned loose ball would also include loss of down.

This is the same as before, but we take the illegal numbering/formation off the table, only returning to the planned loose ball question of "vicinity". I feel I'm missing the rule that specifically prohibits the snapper from recovering the snap before it is touched by any other player, but that might not be a rule.

You got it all right. Just trying to reinforce the points that there is no MINIMUM number of players that a team must have to play a down, although Team A has to have one to put the ball in play. Team B isn't required to have anybody.
Back to Team A. Although there is no minimum (by rule), they must have a kicker and 4 players on each side of the kicker for a free kick. Anything less would be a foul for an illegal formation, but they could still play. Technically, Team A could free kick with 9, and Team B would not have to have anybody on the field. No way for Team A to score, but there would be no foul.

Similar for a scrimmage down. Team A is required to have at least 5 players numbered 50-79 on their LOS. If they don't, that is an illegal formation foul, but, again, they can still play. Team A could snap with 5 players, and Team B wouldn't have to have anybody on the field. The chances of Team A scoring are pretty good.

There is no prohibition on the snapper touching the loose ball after the snap, other than the "planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper" rule. Even in the event of a planned loose ball...", the foul would not be for touching the ball, it would be for 'advancing' the ball. So, if he recovered the ball, but just fell on it, or lost yards, no foul. But, in the given situation, this is not a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper. A PLBITVOTS has the element of concealing the ball by allowing it to be placed or fall to the ground in an area not visible to Team B. That is, to the Rules Committee, illegal deception. But, in the given situation, the ball is highly visible to everybody. So, not a PLBITVOTS.  So, any Team A player could recover the ball (while upright), and advance for a guaranteed touchdown (unless he got a cramp or got hit by lightning or something).

Again, such formations will never be seen. But, these situations help us fully understand the minimum number of players rules.

[ncwingman]

Further digging noted that these examples all stem from Rule 1-1. When was the last time any of us looked at Rule 1?

I also noted the difference in NCAA vs Fed rules on the snap -- in Fed, the ball must touch a back or the ground before it can be touched by a lineman. However, in NCAA, it just cannot be a hand to hand snap to another lineman.

Therefore, in an equally improbable play from the last scenario, A77 "snaps" the ball over his shoulder in the air behind the line of scrimmage, and A71 catches the ball on the fly... would be legal in NCAA but not in Fed.

[ElvisLives]

Therefore, in an equally improbable play from the last scenario, A77 "snaps" the ball over his shoulder in the air behind the line of scrimmage, and A71 catches the ball on the fly... would be legal in NCAA but not in Fed.

As purely theoretical, your ruling is correct. But, as a physical probability of being a legal snap, this would be highly suspect. Considering the ball must not be lifted before the backward movement of the ball starts, for the snapper to move the ball directly from the ground and, in the same smooth and continuous motion backward, at angle that, when released, the ball flies over his shoulder, would be exceptionally difficult to accomplish. Not impossible, I'll grant. But, if I saw him step BEFORE beginning the snap, or lift the ball before beginning the backward movement, or any hesitation or double action during the movement of the ball, I'd have to rule an illegal snap.
But, in pure theory, it could happen, just like any of the other 'silly' situations I offered.

[peterparsons]

Back to Team A. Although there is no minimum (by rule), they must have a kicker and 4 players on each side of the kicker for a free kick. Anything less would be a foul for an illegal formation, but they could still play. Technically, Team A could free kick with 9, and Team B would not have to have anybody on the field. No way for Team A to score, but there would be no foul.

I think there is a way for Team A to score on this play. A free kick untouched by Team B only becomes dead once it touches the ground in the end zone so, if the ball bounces at Team B's 1-yard line, crosses Team B's goal line while airborne and is then recovered by a Team A player in Team B's end zone before touching the ground in the end zone, don't we have a touchdown?

[ElvisLives]

I think there is a way for Team A to score on this play. A free kick untouched by Team B only becomes dead once it touches the ground in the end zone so, if the ball bounces at Team B's 1-yard line, crosses Team B's goal line while airborne and is then recovered by a Team A player in Team B's end zone before touching the ground in the end zone, don't we have a touchdown?

I believe you are right. Get video!

[Etref]

I think there is a way for Team A to score on this play. A free kick untouched by Team B only becomes dead once it touches the ground in the end zone so, if the ball bounces at Team B's 1-yard line, crosses Team B's goal line while airborne and is then recovered by a Team A player in Team B's end zone before touching the ground in the end zone, don't we have a touchdown?

👍

[ElvisLives]

I think there is a way for Team A to score on this play. A free kick untouched by Team B only becomes dead once it touches the ground in the end zone so, if the ball bounces at Team B's 1-yard line, crosses Team B's goal line while airborne and is then recovered by a Team A player in Team B's end zone before touching the ground in the end zone, don't we have a touchdown?

The theory is correct. But let's examine how this could happen, in reality.
Free kick, A-35. Team B chooses to not have any players on the field. A11 kicks the ball. The ball flies high and deep, taking approximately 4 seconds of flight time.  A88, the fastest player on Team A, is at full speed by the time he reaches the A-40 (KO+1 sec), and he runs a 4 flat 40 (faster than any human on record). He has some 60 yards to run. That would take 6 seconds to run. Add the first second to get to full speed, and we are at 7 seconds before A88 even gets to B's goal line. Will the ball bounce around outside B's goal line for some 3 seconds, waiting on A88 to arrive? Well, maybe. But, I'd bet that 999 out of 1000 times it bounces into B's end zone (and touches the ground) before A88 can get there. If it doesn't bounce directly into B's end zone, at best, if it hits just right, it might bounce backward in the field of play, where A88 might recover it before it breaks B's goal line. No score. OK, the ball might take a subsequent perfectly timed bounce and be over the goal line when A88 recovers it in the air. Or, he might legitimately muff the ball across B's goal line where he or a teammate might be able to recover the ball before it touches the ground in B's end zone. Hmmm. TD. The TV guys would go bananas trying to figure all of this out.
It could happen. Get video.

[Kalle]

The theory is correct. But let's examine how this could happen, in reality.

An "easier" alternative: A22 scores a touchdown. B55 thinks he was held and gives an earful to the U who flags him for a DB USC. The team B HC vocally agrees with B55 and gets a separate DB USC flag from the LJ. Team A elects to have both penalties enforced on the kickoff. After a successful try team B DC is still mad and gives choice words to LJ, who flags him. Team B goes ballistic and refuses to take the field for the kickoff.

These penalties take the kickoff from A-35 first to A-50, then B-35, and finally to B-20. Now it is relatively easy for the kicker A5 to kick the ball in such a manner that it can be caught or recovered in the team B EZ before it hits the ground there.