Is this substitution or participation issue?

[Fatso]

Ball is at B10.  After ready for play, a B substitute running from the team area onto the field is hurrying trying to get to B's side of the neutral zone.  He would be the 11th player for B.  He only makes it to the B15 before ball is snapped.  He does not participate or affect the play in any way.

Whatcha got?

[NVFOA_Ump]

That's an Illegal Substitution, live ball foul, 5 yards previous spot if accepted.  See 3-7-5.  I've seen it called DB encroachment, but by rule this is an IS.  Could also morph into Illegal Participation if incoming substitute never becomes a legal player and then participates in the play.

[SCHSref]

That's an Illegal Substitution, live ball foul, 5 yards previous spot if accepted.  See 3-7-5.  I've seen it called DB encroachment, but by rule this is an IS.  Could also morph into Illegal Participation if incoming substitute never becomes a legal player and then participates in the play.

If someone called if DB encroachment, then they called it incorrectly. You cannot encroach until you are on your side of the neutral zone.

Rule 2
SECTION 8 ENCROACHMENT
Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting at the
ready-for-play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked as in 6-1-3a or 6-1-3b. For the purposes of enforcing
encroachment restrictions, an entering substitute is not considered to be a player until he is on his team's side
of the neutral zone. Encroachment also occurs when a player violates the free kick restrictions as in 6-1-4.

[BetweenTheLines]

In similar fashion if the 12th man is trying to get off the field and it looks like he will not make it there have been many officials tell me that they kill it and flag it. I'll tell them you have just blown an inadvertent whistle and they look at me like I'm nuts. They say they have always been told that. My response is, "You have been told wrong"! My response usually is, "How did you know when the snap was going to take place?". Secondly, if it's B and A is running a hurry-up offense and they would have caught the 12th man on the field you have just taken away a "free play". You see this happen all the time and sometimes the result is a long completed pass. 

[ncwingman]

In similar fashion if the 12th man is trying to get off the field and it looks like he will not make it there have been many officials tell me that they kill it and flag it. I'll tell them you have just blown an inadvertent whistle and they look at me like I'm nuts. They say they have always been told that. My response is, "You have been told wrong"! My response usually is, "How did you know when the snap was going to take place?". Secondly, if it's B and A is running a hurry-up offense and they would have caught the 12th man on the field you have just taken away a "free play". You see this happen all the time and sometimes the result is a long completed pass.

Can you have an inadvertent whistle during a dead ball period?

[BetweenTheLines]

It might not be officially but if this happens in the playoffs here in SC. you are probably done for the season!

[ncwingman]

Personally, I would agree that if the 12th player is sprinting off the field, is outside the numbers and *might* not make it, you let that go and make it a live ball substitution foul if he doesn't make it.

However, if he's still got to cover half the field and will definitely be influencing the play after the snap on his way off the field, you should shut that down pre-snap for a 5 yard foul instead of a 15 yard foul. You can also tell when the snap is imminent by knowing the general offensive cadence and/or watching the play clock, especially later in the game when you're familiar with their play calling.

[ncwingman]

That's an Illegal Substitution, live ball foul, 5 yards previous spot if accepted.  See 3-7-5.  I've seen it called DB encroachment, but by rule this is an IS.  Could also morph into Illegal Participation if incoming substitute never becomes a legal player and then participates in the play.

Quick nitpicky leagalese point that has no bearing on the conclusions you said.

A substitute becomes a player when (among other things) he participates in the play. You can't have a substitute not become a player but still participate. However, if the substitute was not a player at the snap (because he was still on the wrong side of the neutral zone, as per the original example), then that's still illegal participation if he participates.

Also, 3-7-6 pretty much directly addresses the original situation, and it is illegal substitution.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Quick nitpicky leagalese point that has no bearing on the conclusions you said.

A substitute becomes a player when (among other things) he participates in the play. You can't have a substitute not become a player but still participate. However, if the substitute was not a player at the snap (because he was still on the wrong side of the neutral zone, as per the original example), then that's still illegal participation if he participates.

Also, 3-7-6 pretty much directly addresses the original situation, and it is illegal substitution.

We can agree that the wording here is not real transparent but IMHO a substitute cannot become a player simply by participating illegally.  The definitions get in the way with that (See last sentence in 2-32-15).

[AlUpstateNY]

We can agree that the wording here is not real transparent but IMHO a substitute cannot become a player simply by participating illegally.  The definitions get in the way with that (See last sentence in 2-32-15).

Unfortunately, no matter how specific the definition tries to be, "judgment" can be a deciding factor.  Illegal participation costs 15 yards because it gives one team a decided advantage, illegal substitution suggests one team made a mistake, that was discovered BEFORE any serious advantage was gained. Both are fouls creating penalties, one harsher than the other (for obvious reason).  That "reason" is why there is a difference that "Judgment" is necessary to apply the appropriate penalty.

[Fatso]

In similar fashion if the 12th man is trying to get off the field and it looks like he will not make it there have been many officials tell me that they kill it and flag it. I'll tell them you have just blown an inadvertent whistle and they look at me like I'm nuts. They say they have always been told that. My response is, "You have been told wrong"! My response usually is, "How did you know when the snap was going to take place?". Secondly, if it's B and A is running a hurry-up offense and they would have caught the 12th man on the field you have just taken away a "free play". You see this happen all the time and sometimes the result is a long completed pass.

Mechanics question for your scenario - would that call be the deep wings responsibility?  Line of scrimmage guys shouldn't take their eyes off the line especially after the ready.

[NVFOA_Ump]

In similar fashion if the 12th man is trying to get off the field and it looks like he will not make it there have been many officials tell me that they kill it and flag it. I'll tell them you have just blown an inadvertent whistle and they look at me like I'm nuts. They say they have always been told that. My response is, "You have been told wrong"! My response usually is, "How did you know when the snap was going to take place?". Secondly, if it's B and A is running a hurry-up offense and they would have caught the 12th man on the field you have just taken away a "free play". You see this happen all the time and sometimes the result is a long completed pass.

Our NFHS training from multiple sources has ALWAYS taught that when it's clear in our judgment that the snap is imminent and will probably happen before the departing player(s) and/or incoming substitutes will all be "legal" to blow & throw kill the play before it starts.  Additionally, NFHS has ALWAYS preached that there should not be a do over on these kinds of plays.  And lastly, by definition and by rule you cannot have an Inadvertent Whistle if the ball is not live at the time the whistle blows.

[BetweenTheLines]

So when A88 false starts a millisecond prior to you blowing that whistle on your side of the field in front of B's coach you'll have lost all of your credibility unless of course you change your mind to save your butt and call false start. There is absolutely no rule support to kill it prior to the snap.

[NVFOA_Ump]

So when A88 false starts a millisecond prior to you blowing that whistle on your side of the field in front of B's coach you'll have lost all of your credibility unless of course you change your mind to save your butt and call false start. There is absolutely no rule support to kill it prior to the snap.

We'll simply disagree on that point.  10 years of training in both Rhode Island and Massachusetts say otherwise.  And one LAST TIME:  you by rule definition CANNOT have an Inadvertent Whistle if the ball
is not yet live when you blow the whistle.  And sorry, but this post makes no sense since a False Start is a False Start by rule a DB foul not matter how close to the actual snap it occurs.

[BetweenTheLines]

I certainly agreed in a previous post that this is not considered an IW. But you have to tell me what rule are you using to blow it dead? Please site the rule under which you are using your rationale

[Ralph Damren]

My take on this....

"Ye can't be offsides 'til ya onside"(pre 1976 saying)
If B's big ole Bubba can't git to his side of NZ before snap BUT doesn't participate = live ball IS
If Bubba grabs QB from behind with "Surprise  " after ball is snapped = live IP
If eager tweeter sounds horn while Bubba is still waddling in enemy turf = IW

Tweeter buys postgame meal 

[NVFOA_Ump]

IMHO at the beginning of this thread we agreed that the specific instance in the example would be a LB foul (a single late incoming player to make 11 being on the wrong side of the ball at the snap).  Virtually all other substitution violations, late departing player(s), no departing player(s) after a substitution, 12 on the field after we've counted a 2nd time, etc., are all DB substitution fouls by rule.  That's clear in multiple rules. 

[BetweenTheLines]

The first part of your statement is true the 11th man coming on who does not reach his side of the NZ is covered in rule 3-7-5. 3-7-4 covers the late departing player (The rulebook calls him a player who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and does not participate). This is in fact a live-ball foul. So you wouldn't think that A's offensive set would snap the ball prior to this player attempting to leave the field but if he does then it's a live ball foul. As far as B is concerned it's the same case, you have to give him time to leave the field. Who knows maybe A will false start before B gets to the sideline, maybe they will have an illegal shift along with B's unsuccessful attempt which will result in a double foul. In effect what you or whoever taught you this is saying is that 3-7-4 violations will only be enforced on A because we will always blow it dead on B. That's just no correct.

[NVFOA_Ump]

We'll simply agree to disagree on this.  If a replaced player is not off of the field after the RFP with A in ready-to-snap formation and we have counted twice then he has far exceeded the 3 second time he has to start off of the field.  That is our guidance and that's how we enforce.  That's 3-7-1.

[BetweenTheLines]

We certainly do disagree! By the way, what is a ready-to-snap formation? I can't find that anywhere.

[NVFOA_Ump]

We certainly do disagree! By the way, what is a ready-to-snap formation? I can't find that anywhere.

Wow, sorry you don't like plain English.  We'll us the official term next time just for you "if the snap is imminent".

[BetweenTheLines]

This will be my last post about this as you have submerged this conversation from rules to the personal in nature. The word immanent is not in the rulebook by the way.

[Fatso]

This will be my last post about this as you have submerged this conversation from rules to the personal in nature.

 

[CalhounLJ]

We'll simply agree to disagree on this.  If a replaced player is not off of the field after the RFP with A in ready-to-snap formation and we have counted twice then he has far exceeded the 3 second time he has to start off of the field.  That is our guidance and that's how we enforce.  That's 3-7-1.

Not being off the field, and starting to leave the field are two entirely different scenarios. A player can start to leave the field before the 3 seconds expires and still not be off the field when the ball is snapped. This situation is a simultaneous-with-the-snap foul and never should be blown dead.. If that's your guidance, you need better guidance.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, the wings shouild be focused on the snap about to occur.

IMHO, IF the departing player is still in their vision when the ball is snapped = 

IMHO, IF the departing player is not in is view when the ball is snapped = 

IMHO, If A's coach  gripes: "But he still had one foot on the field.... "

          You could respond : "Coach, I was focused on the play about to happen, NOT where his shoelaces were  "