ING, ILT ?

[ElvisLives]

3/10, B-25, 0:30 (4), A=7, B=14, Team A has exhausted all times-out.
A11 receives the snap directly behind the snapper. While A11 is still within the tackle box, B99 is bearing down on A11, and is within 2 yards of A11, when A11 throws the ball to A77 who catches the ball at the B-26, and advances to the B-24, where he tackled and taken to the ground. (No eligible Team A player was inside the numbers and behind the NZ when A77 caught the ball). The game clock is at 0:24 when A77 falls to the ground.

Ruling:

Include all elements in your ruling, including penalty distance (if any), down, distance, yard line, play clock, and game clock status.

   

[Maineac]

How deep “directly behind the snapper” was A11 when he received the snap? From what yard line did he throw the pass?

[Legacy Zebra]

Intentional grounding, assuming it was a forward pass. A11 threw a forward pass into an area without an eligible receiver in an effort to consume yardage. Whether he was in or out of the tackle box is irrelevant since the pass didn’t cross or land beyond the neutral zone or neutral zone extended. No illegal touching because it was not a legal pass. Loss of down at the spot of the foul, 4th down. No runoff because the foul did not cause the clock to stop. Clock starts on the RFP.

[ElvisLives]

Intentional grounding, assuming it was a forward pass. A11 threw a forward pass into an area without an eligible receiver in an effort to consume yardage. Whether he was in or out of the tackle box is irrelevant since the pass didn’t cross or land beyond the neutral zone or neutral zone extended. No illegal touching because it was not a legal pass. Loss of down at the spot of the foul, 4th down. No runoff because the foul did not cause the clock to stop. Clock starts on the RFP.

I used the tackle box and the numbers as a means of declaring that there were no eligible Team A players occupying the area where the pass was thrown.
Yeah, it was the 10 second subtraction issue I was interested in. Having not thought about this scenario previously, it struck me that this is Intentional Grounding (as has been previously interpreted by Shaw, et al), but, as you say, it didn’t directly and immediately cause the clock to stop. So, there would not be an opportunity for the 10SS. But, with less than 0:30 in the game, behind in score, and no times out remaining, I would argue this is a pass thrown to conserve time, so the game clock would start on the referee’s signal.

[ElvisLives]

How deep “directly behind the snapper” was A11 when he received the snap? From what yard line did he throw the pass?

Yeah, those things weren't clear. Where he received the snap is irrelevant, but the spot of the pass certainly is. Let's say B-35. So, yeah, a forward pass.

[Maineac]

I only asked if he was immediately behind the center to see if you were possibly setting up a backward pass as a wrinkle to your scenario. Thought you were going for ING, just wanted to be sure.

[ElvisLives]

I only asked if he was immediately behind the center to see if you were possibly setting up a backward pass as a wrinkle to your scenario. Thought you were going for ING, just wanted to be sure.

A very legitimate concern. Thank you.

(PS I already have enough wrinkles. Don't need to add any more.  )

[lonnieritch1981]

Okay, I don't understand why this is viewed as an illegal forward pass. It is surely illegal touching which carries a 5-yard penalty from the previous spot and a loss of down. See 7-3-2 and 7-3-11. This would simply be a 5-yard penalty assessed from the previous spot with a loss of down in my opinion. But I'm open to correction because I'd rather get it right than be right, if you understand what I mean.

[JasonTX]

Okay, I don't understand why this is viewed as an illegal forward pass. It is surely illegal touching which carries a 5-yard penalty from the previous spot and a loss of down. See 7-3-2 and 7-3-11. This would simply be a 5-yard penalty assessed from the previous spot with a loss of down in my opinion. But I'm open to correction because I'd rather get it right than be right, if you understand what I mean.

To have illegal touching,  the pass must be legal.

[ElvisLives]

Okay, I don't understand why this is viewed as an illegal forward pass. It is surely illegal touching which carries a 5-yard penalty from the previous spot and a loss of down. See 7-3-2 and 7-3-11. This would simply be a 5-yard penalty assessed from the previous spot with a loss of down in my opinion. But I'm open to correction because I'd rather get it right than be right, if you understand what I mean.

Shaw issued an interpretation a few seasons ago that told us that a forward pass thrown to an ineligible player in an area otherwise not occupied an eligible A player is Intentional Grounding (ING), even if the pass is caught (not literally ‘grounded’), which is one type of illegal forward pass. As such, neither illegal touching (ITP) nor ineligible player downfield (IDP) are possible as fouls, since those fouls require the pass to be legal. The penalty for ING is loss of down at the spot of the pass, which was the B-35. (Note that this spot is 10 yards behind the NZ, which will result in a distance penalty 5 yards greater than ITP or IDP.)
Because of the time/score, in particular, this is an illegal pass to conserve time, and would qualify for the game clock to start on the referee’s signal (“ready”) after the penalty enforcement, even if the pass had fallen incomplete or A77 had managed to run the ball out of bounds. But, since the pass was caught, this type of ING does not cause the game clock to stop directly and immediately, so there is no opportunity for a 10-second subtraction.
It is an illegal forward pass. Can’t have illegal touching or ineligible downfield.

[bossman72]

Remember, QB needs to be under duress to call ING when a lineman catches the ball.  There are instances where it should just be illegal touching, like when they try to run the backward pass to the tackle and end up throwing it forward accidentally.