Author Topic: Bat (Read 10003 times)

toma · « **on:** July 21, 2024, 07:56:13 AM »

4/Goal @ B-8. Runner A44 is hit at the B-5 and fumbles, and B54 bats the grounded loose ball at the B-3 back into his own end zone. A88 sees the loose ball and recovers while the ball is still in the end zone.

Ruling: The bat by B54 is illegal, rule 9.7.1. As this is not a scrimmage or free kick play etc.. and it is a 10yd penalty
Does this penalty carry over (Try or KO)

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2024, 11:02:44 AM »

According to rule 8.2.2; if an opponent of the scoring team commits a foul during a down in which a touchdown is scored, and there was not a change in possession during the down, they may accept the results of the play and choose enforcement of the penalty
a. on the try or
b. on the subsequent kick off

dammitbobby · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2024, 07:54:36 PM »

Quote from: toma on July 21, 2024, 07:56:13 AM

4/Goal @ B-8. Runner A44 is hit at the B-5 and fumbles, and B54 bats the grounded loose ball at the B-3 back into his own end zone. A88 sees the loose ball and recovers while the ball is still in the end zone.

Ruling: The bat by B54 is illegal, rule 9.7.1. As this is not a scrimmage or free kick play etc.. and it is a 10yd penalty
Does this penalty carry over (Try or KO)

I realize this is NFHS but what is the verbiage of 9.7.1? (Not trying to cross streams here, but this would not be a foul in NCAA (9-4-1-c), just looking to learn)

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2024, 08:46:03 AM »

The key to this scenario is the ball was grounded. If the ball had been stripped by the defender or the force of the hit caused the ball to pop out of the runners arms then B or A can legally bat the ball as long as the ball had not touched the ground. See 9.7.2 in 2024 rule book and also case 9-7-4 in the 2024 case book.

KWH · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2024, 04:31:37 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on July 22, 2024, 08:46:03 AM

The key to this scenario is the ball was grounded. If the ball had been stripped by the defender or the force of the hit caused the ball to pop out of the runners arms then B or A can legally bat the ball as long as the ball had not touched the ground. See 9.7.2 in 2024 rule book and also case 9-7-4 in the 2024 case book.

Point of parliamentary procedure:
In the NFHS....
Rules are always written with hyphens - eg: 9-7-2
Case Plays are always written with periods - eg: 9.7.4

SOURCE: 2024 CASE BOOK Page 2 - SEE: CASE BOOK FORMAT

Not trying to put anyone down, rather, just simply sharing knowledge.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2024, 06:37:38 AM »

Quote from: dammitbobby on July 21, 2024, 07:54:36 PM

I realize this is NFHS but what is the verbiage of 9.7.1? (Not trying to cross streams here, but this would not be a foul in NCAA (9-4-1-c), just looking to learn)

NFHS distinguishes between a bat and a muff. A muff is an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. A bat is an intentional act to provide directional force to the ball. In this case, a muff would not be a foul, but a bat would. Derek is correct in that a bat is only illegal if it's applied to a grounded ball, unless it is a backward pass batted forward by the team in possession...

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2024, 10:39:00 AM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on July 23, 2024, 06:37:38 AM

NFHS distinguishes between a bat and a muff. A muff is an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. A bat is an intentional act to provide directional force to the ball. In this case, a muff would not be a foul, but a bat would. Derek is correct in that a bat is only illegal if it's applied to a grounded ball, unless it is a backward pass batted forward by the team in possession...

This difference (bat vs. muff) is an important one. We have always been told to treat this type of action as a "When in doubt, it is a muff and not a bat".

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2024, 01:51:15 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on July 23, 2024, 10:39:00 AM

This difference (bat vs. muff) is an important one. We have always been told to treat this type of action as a "When in doubt, it is a muff and not a bat".

In Mainer terms : A muff is when ya' a trying to git the ball

A bat is when ya' trying to keep them from gitting it

AYUH 'SPECT SO.....

KWH · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2024, 02:15:05 PM »

Quote from: Ralph Damren on July 23, 2024, 01:51:15 PM

In Mainer terms : A muff is when ya' a trying to git the ball
A bat is when ya' trying to keep them from gitting it

AYUH 'SPECT SO.....

Out here on the left coast in ORR-EEE-GUN

A muff is typically less than 59
A bat is typically over the age of 60

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2024, 08:32:55 AM »

Hello, I am reviewing the 2024 preseason guide as published by NFHS. On page 13 there is an article entitled ''touchback or safety? It depends' It shows a picture of a runner in the grasp of a defender, who apparently has stripped the ball, causing it to roll into the end zone....

Quoting, "If the runner in the PlayPic Fumbles into the opponents end zone, his team provided the force. The result is a touchback, and the opponent will next snap from its own 20 yard line...."

my question is team A could still score a touchdown on this play if they recovered the ball in the end zone, correct? if the ball was stripped (editing to add legally batted) by the defender, then it was team B that provided the force Referencing again case play 9.7.4.

Snapper · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2024, 09:16:51 AM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on July 25, 2024, 08:32:55 AM

Hello, I am reviewing the 2024 preseason guide as published by NFHS. On page 13 there is an article entitled ''touchback or safety? It depends' It shows a picture of a runner in the grasp of a defender, who apparently has stripped the ball, causing it to roll into the end zone....

Quoting, "If the runner in the PlayPic Fumbles into the opponents end zone, his team provided the force. The result is a touchback, and the opponent will next snap from its own 20 yard line...."

my question is team A could still score a touchdown on this play if they recovered the ball in the end zone, correct? if the ball was stripped (editing to add legally batted) by the defender, then it was team B that provided the force Referencing again case play 9.7.4.

Yes and no.

I believe that you are saying that on 4th down, B strips the ball from A (at let's say the B-2) and the ball goes into B's end zone after the strip. I think you are also saying that there was no further bat after the ball was stripped.

In that case, the ball being stripped is a fumble by A. Stripping the ball is not a bat by B, it's a fumble by A. You could have a bat after the fumble, but the strip itself is just a fumble.

So A's fumble is the force that puts the ball in the end zone. If B falls on the ball there (or it goes out of bounds through the end zone), then it is a Touchback for B. If A falls on the ball in the end zone, since there is no 4th down fumble rule in NFHS, then that is a Touchdown for A.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2024, 09:34:27 AM »

Thank you, Snapper. I am only reading the scenario as outlined in the NFHS Preseason guide And the scenario said nothing about fourth down. I was only suggesting that the article should have added that if team A fell on the ball in B's End-zone it would be a touchdown.

The Case play 9–7–4 reads "While the ball is in A1's possession (b) B1, bats, the ball forward into B's end zone, where A3 recovers" In that case, they say the bat is legal and results in a touchdown for A.

I read this to mean that the ball was stripped or batted while it was in A's possession. Yes it is a fumble but caused by B batting or stripping the ball. The definition of batting in rule 2.2 : "batting is intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand"

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2024, 09:38:42 AM »

Adding I am going to be doing back judge this year and I expect I will see plays like this and I want to be ready to call them correctly

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2024, 10:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Snapper on July 25, 2024, 09:16:51 AM

In that case, the ball being stripped is a fumble by A. Stripping the ball is not a bat by B, it's a fumble by A.

Actually by definition in Rule 2 it is a bat, and that is confirmed in the Case Book as Derek noted.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2024, 12:02:07 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on July 25, 2024, 10:24:12 AM

Actually by definition in Rule 2 it is a bat, and that is confirmed in the Case Book as Derek noted.

Stripping the ball can be a bat, if the defender intentionally strikes the ball, but it doesn't have to be. a defender can wrap his arms around the ball carrier and by the act of trying to pull him to the ground, strip the ball. Regardless, either act doesn't impart a new force. The force that put the ball into the endzone is the fumble by A. Read the definition of force...

Snapper · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2024, 12:03:39 PM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on July 25, 2024, 10:24:12 AM

Actually by definition in Rule 2 it is a bat, and that is confirmed in the Case Book as Derek noted.

Interesting. Thanks guys. I would have sworn that it was the same in both codes. But I guess not.

I need to stay away from NFHS discussions, even when I'm "sure".

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2024, 12:11:33 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on July 25, 2024, 09:34:27 AM

Thank you, Snapper. I am only reading the scenario as outlined in the NFHS Preseason guide And the scenario said nothing about fourth down. I was only suggesting that the article should have added that if team A fell on the ball in B's End-zone it would be a touchdown.

The Case play 9–7–4 reads "While the ball is in A1's possession (b) B1, bats, the ball forward into B's end zone, where A3 recovers" In that case, they say the bat is legal and results in a touchdown for A.

I read this to mean that the ball was stripped or batted while it was in A's possession. Yes it is a fumble but caused by B batting or stripping the ball. The definition of batting in rule 2.2 : "batting is intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand"

Stripping the ball can be a bat, if the defender intentionally strikes the ball, but it doesn't have to be. a defender can wrap his arms around the ball carrier and by the act of trying to pull him to the ground, strip the ball. Regardless, either act doesn't impart a new force. The force that put the ball into the endzone is the fumble by A. Read the definition of force...

bama_stripes · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2024, 08:47:59 AM »

Even if A’s loss of possession is caused by a bat, such bat is not illegal, since the ball wasn’t grounded. As others have said, this is a garden-variety fumble, and the fumble is the force that put the ball into B’s EZ.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2024, 10:00:37 AM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on July 26, 2024, 08:47:59 AM

Even if A’s loss of possession is caused by a bat, such bat is not illegal, since the ball wasn’t grounded. As others have said, this is a garden-variety fumble, and the fumble is the force that put the ball into B’s EZ.

But let's not confuse things. In the original play we had a fumble with a grounded ball and then the bat. In the second play we had a bat that caused the fumble. In the original play we had a foul for an Illegal Bat, in the second play the bat was legal.

VALJ · « **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2024, 10:00:28 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on July 25, 2024, 08:32:55 AM

my question is team A could still score a touchdown on this play if they recovered the ball in the end zone, correct? if the ball was stripped (editing to add legally batted) by the defender, then it was team B that provided the force Referencing again case play 9.7.4.

If an A player recovers the fumbled ball inB’s end zone, yes, it is a touchdown. Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown. (Fundamental I-8, rule 8-2-1)