Illegal Substitutions?

[NVFOA_Ump]

A few substitution situations, in each situation the "replaced player" has remained on the field for well over 3 seconds and as they are getting into formation the crew has completed counts and has 12 (or more) on the field:
1.  Play ends and team A is heading back to huddle. 3 incoming A subs go directly into huddle, only two replaced players head out.  They break huddle and start into formation and after they break the huddle both R & U have counted 12.  What do we have if anything?
2.  Play ends and team A is heading back to huddle. 3 incoming A subs go directly into huddle, only two replaced players head out.  They break huddle and start into formation and after they break the huddle both R & U have counted 12 and just before the "extra" tight end gets to his spot he starts heading off the field.  What do we have if anything?
3.  Play ends and team B is heading back into formation. 3 incoming B subs go directly into formation, only two replaced players head out.  Just as the A snapper places his hands on the ball the wing and back judge have finished their count and have 12 with no replaced player heading out yet. What do we have if anything?
4.  Play ends and team B is heading back into formation. 3 incoming B subs go directly into formation, only two replaced players head out.  Just as the A snapper places his hands on the ball the wing and back judge have finished their count and have 12 as the "replaced B" player starts heading out. What do we have if anything?

[ncwingman]

I, personally, would err on the side of preventative officiating in most cases. If the 12th player is heading off, I'll give him the opportunity even if it's after the "3 seconds". If there's 12 in formation and nobody seems to notice or care, then I'll probably say something ("Count your players!") and flag if there's no reaction. The offense would get a shorter leash than the defense.

To wit, I'd flag situation 1 the fastest, 3 the second fastest, and I'd have to see if 2/4 could rectify the situation before the snap, potentially making it a live ball foul rather than killing it pre-snap.

All of those situations are fouls by rule, but it does nobody any favors to flag them all.

[SCline]

^ agreed. However, you have to be careful about teams using this leeway to use substitutions to confuse the other team or getting a matchup advantage from it. Offense would generally have a shorter leash for me.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Follow-up question #1:  So, in these types of situations, how many of us regularly give the "count your players" hint and do you give it at all levels (youth, sub-varsity, varsity)?

[Tom.OH]

So, in these types of situations, how many of us regularly give the "count your players" hint and do you give it at all levels (youth, sub-varsity, varsity)?

I was working a youth game (I know but Kings Island season tickets aren't free). I said blue captain count your players.  He yelled Jimmy get off! Jimmy ran off, now they have 9 players...

[bossman72]

A few substitution situations, in each situation the "replaced player" has remained on the field for well over 3 seconds and as they are getting into formation the crew has completed counts and has 12 (or more) on the field:
1.  Play ends and team A is heading back to huddle. 3 incoming A subs go directly into huddle, only two replaced players head out.  They break huddle and start into formation and after they break the huddle both R & U have counted 12.  What do we have if anything?
2.  Play ends and team A is heading back to huddle. 3 incoming A subs go directly into huddle, only two replaced players head out.  They break huddle and start into formation and after they break the huddle both R & U have counted 12 and just before the "extra" tight end gets to his spot he starts heading off the field.  What do we have if anything?
3.  Play ends and team B is heading back into formation. 3 incoming B subs go directly into formation, only two replaced players head out.  Just as the A snapper places his hands on the ball the wing and back judge have finished their count and have 12 with no replaced player heading out yet. What do we have if anything?
4.  Play ends and team B is heading back into formation. 3 incoming B subs go directly into formation, only two replaced players head out.  Just as the A snapper places his hands on the ball the wing and back judge have finished their count and have 12 as the "replaced B" player starts heading out. What do we have if anything?

If I'm picturing these correctly, the first 3 sound like dead ball fouls for illegal substitution.
1) There's no "break the huddle with 12" rule, but if it's close to 3 seconds, call a foul, especially if the replaced player draws coverage.
2) This is even worse than play 1 where he's almost in formation.  Shut this down as this most certainly drew coverage from the defense.
3 and 4)   The best way to remember this is... If the defender is the 12th man and he doesn't know he's the 12th man (not attempting to get off), then shut it down for illegal substitution.  If the defender is the 12th man and he knows he's the 12th man, give him every opportunity to leave the field.  If he doesn't make it off of the field before the ball is snapped, this is a LIVE BALL illegal substitution foul.

[Ralph Damren]

Remember, guys, it used to read "...have to leave IMMEDIATELY.." It was felt that some big ole' Bubbas don't always respond immediately to commands. If he is on the way off - after he has digested the command - only worry if he is drawing coverage on his departure. The wings are responsible if he is off the field before the snap. They also need to be focused on pre-snap alignments and false snaps. If the player is outside of the wings focus,with a foot still inbounds when the ball is snapped;keep you flag in your belt.

A question from an inquiring coach could be responded : " Coach, I was focusing on the snap and play. Where the replaced player was had no baring on the play."
                                           

[NVFOA_Ump]

Follow-up question #2:  Rule 2-32-12 - Are we really required to know when the replacement player has "notified" the replaced player that he has in fact been replaced and how are we supposed to know that?

[AlUpstateNY]

Remember, guys, it used to read "...have to leave IMMEDIATELY.." It was felt that some big ole' Bubbas don't always respond immediately to commands. If he is on the way off - after he has digested the command - only worry if he is drawing coverage on his departure. The wings are responsible if he is off the field before the snap. They also need to be focused on pre-snap alignments and false snaps. If the player is outside of the wings focus,with a foot still inbounds when the ball is snapped;keep you flag in your belt.

A question from an inquiring coach could be responded : " Coach, I was focusing on the snap and play. Where the replaced player was had no baring on the play."
                                           

Sound advise, allowing "anybody" (especially an opposing Coach) to
'buy" a flag can prove to VERY expensive.