Case Book 10.5.4 Situation B

[dwoicke]

Can someone please show me the rule that drives Case Book 10.5.4 Situation B?  I am particularly interested in the part when B fouls. 

Why is the penalty assessed from the goal line?  Why not previous spot like every other scenario where B fouls behind the line of scrimmage (or anywhere else for that matter) and the run ends behind the line of scrimmage?  I cannot find any exception and there is no corresponding rule (10.5.4???).

I also have a book, Penalty Enforcements Made Easy, and it also appears to show that scenario on its flow chart.  Thanks!

[CalhounLJ]

I don't have my case book handy so I cant read the play, but if B fouls behind the line of scrimmage on a play that results in a safety, the enforcement spot is the goal line. Maybe that's it?

[dwoicke]

I am sure that is it, but what is the exact rule number?

[CalhounLJ]

You would have to look in an earlier edition of the rule book, because they have screwed that up too. Should be 10-4-8, but since they added the "following a change of possession" comment, I guess it no longer applies to a play that would be a safety when there is no change of possession.. 

Dang, did they just randomly add phrases without thinking?

OAN, If it wasn't so sad, the added disclaimer on table 10-4 would be funny: "This table is not intended to encompass all fouls and possible options, but to focus on certain fouls that occur during running plays."
WTH? It's like they admitted they didn't want to spend the effort to think it through, so they just gave us some of the options and bailed out on the rest... 

Or, "Obviously we can't think of everything so if we missed something, just know we intended it that way... "

[sj]

10-4-2-d

[CalhounLJ]

10-4-2-d

That’s doesn’t have anything to do with the enforcement spot being the goal line. In fact there is no situation in which the previous spot will be the goal line.

[CalhounLJ]

That’s doesn’t have anything to do with the enforcement spot being the goal line. In fact there is no situation in which the previous spot will be the goal line. It would work for situation A, but not for situation B. Which is the question.

[sj]

That’s doesn’t have anything to do with the enforcement spot being the goal line. In fact there is no situation in which the previous spot will be the goal line.

Correct. It used to would have been the old 10-5-2 which was... "The enforcement spot for any foul by the defense is the goal line when the run ends in the end zone and would result in a safety.

But that's gone now. So it seems the case book needs to be edited to reflect that 10-4-2-d would be used making the previous spot the enforcement spot for the B foul. That's my take on it anyways.

[CalhounLJ]

Correct. It used to would have been the old 10-5-2 which was... "The enforcement spot for any foul by the defense is the goal line when the run ends in the end zone and would result in a safety.

But that's gone now. So it seems the case book needs to be edited to reflect that 10-4-2-d would be used making the previous spot the enforcement spot for the B foul. That's my take on it anyways.

Read 10-4-8 and take out the shaded clause, “following a change of possession.” That should be the rule to apply to situation B. The problem is the shaded part. It restricts the use of the rule to only those situations that occur following a change of possession. Which excludes situation B in the case play. Or at least that's the way it should be.

*I agree with you that it seems like the rules committee changed that to a previous spot enforcement, which negates my argument, but creates another problem. Specifically, what to do with the ruling in the case book. Either the rule is wrong, or the case book ruling is wrong..

[Fatso]

Can someone please show me the rule that drives Case Book 10.5.4 Situation B?  I am particularly interested in the part when B fouls. 

Why is the penalty assessed from the goal line?  Why not previous spot like every other scenario where B fouls behind the line of scrimmage (or anywhere else for that matter) and the run ends behind the line of scrimmage?  I cannot find any exception and there is no corresponding rule (10.5.4???).

I also have a book, Penalty Enforcements Made Easy, and it also appears to show that scenario on its flow chart.  Thanks!

Case book answer possibly wrong for the B foul?  10-4-2d says basic spot is previous spot for fouls by A or B when related run ends behind LOS, except if 8-5-2c applies which it doesn't.  Case book and rules book directly contradict one another here.  I think the case book answer is outdated based on 2023 rule change.  Prior to 2023, enforcement of B foul would be goal line since end of run was in end zone.  There's no reason to consider the goal line in this situation since the enforcement rule changed to previous spot for B fouls behind LOS and run ending behind LOS.  Double whammy in favor of previous spot.

[bama_stripes]

The only time that the GL is the enforcement spot is after a COP.  Otherwise, use the previous spot.

PLAY A:  B23 intercepts A’s pass at the B-6, and his momentum takes him into his EZ where he is tackled by his face mask by A71.  Enforce from GL.

PLAY B:  A14 drops back into his EZ, where he is tackled by his face mask by B55.  Enforce from PS.

[dwoicke]

I agree with the general consensus here.  The case book is INCORRECT.  I will be enforcing from previous spot this year!

-Dan

[CalhounLJ]

I agree with the general consensus here.  The case book is INCORRECT.  I will be enforcing from previous spot this year!

-Dan

Yeah, me too. I guess I need to get past what used to be, what ought to be, and what makes sense.

[toma]

The 2024 rule book no longer has 10-5-4, 10-5-5 or 10-5-6
2024 rule book 10-5-3 If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal lines, it is a safety.

The case book hasn't caught up to 2024 rule book

[Ralph Damren]

I agree with you guys that can't find the rule support. In late August we usually get a 'clairification' on such and it is nearing late August now. Under Football Fundamentals : X.7. "The penalty for a live-ball foul by the defensive team is administered from the basic spot, EXCEPT when that spot is in the end zone." IMHO, they may be trying to say NOT the basic spot which would be the previous spot.

TODAY'S PLAY:

"Slim" , A's QB sneaks the ball into the end zone from B's 3.
"Big ole' Bubba", A's LG, is  for holding 2 yards deep in the endzone 
...Before Slim crosses the goal line....
....After Slim crosses the goal line...

YOU MAKE THE CALL././.    

[Fatso]

I agree with you guys that can't find the rule support. In late August we usually get a 'clairification' on such and it is nearing late August now. Under Football Fundamentals : X.7. "The penalty for a live-ball foul by the defensive team is administered from the basic spot, EXCEPT when that spot is in the end zone." IMHO, they may be trying to say NOT the basic spot which would be the previous spot.

When was Fundamental X.7 written?  Seems like it's probably outdated like the casebook example above. 

[Ralph Damren]

When was Fundamental X.7 written?  Seems like it's probably outdated like the casebook example above.

Prior to this year as it is not highlighted.

[Fatso]

TODAY'S PLAY:

"Slim" , A's QB sneaks the ball into the end zone from B's 3.
"Big ole' Bubba", A's LG, is  for holding 2 yards deep in the endzone 
...Before Slim crosses the goal line....
....After Slim crosses the goal line...

YOU MAKE THE CALL././.

My guess:
Before Slim crosses - live-ball, enforce from goal line
After Slim crosses - dead-ball foul

[Ralph Damren]

My guess:
Before Slim crosses - live-ball, enforce from goal line
After Slim crosses - dead-ball foul

Good try  , but remember ,a dead ball foul would need to be a PF or USC not a hold. Same would be true for a BIB, & 5-yd FM. IF such foul occurred after the score, just wave off the flag. This is a good illustration of the WHEN of the 4 W's (WHO. WHAT WHEN, WHERE).

[Fatso]

Good try  , but remember ,a dead ball foul would need to be a PF or USC not a hold. Same would be true for a BIB, & 5-yd FM. IF such foul occurred after the score, just wave off the flag. This is a good illustration of the WHEN of the 4 W's (WHO. WHAT WHEN, WHERE).

  Ahh, gotcha.  Thx

[AlUpstateNY]

Perhaps that's why 9.5.1 is so short & simple.