Why is a fumble behind the LOS not bean-bagged, but beyond LOS it is?

[Fatso]

Thanks

[ElvisLives]

Thanks

Not a NFHS expert, but maybe by asking these questions, you can arrive at the answer:
1) Is the spot of a fumble behind the NZ a Basic Spot?
2) Is a fumble that goes out of bounds beyond the spot of a fumble returned to the spot of the fumble (whether beyond or behind the NZ)?
3) Is a fumble on 4th down or a try that is recovered by a player other than the fumbler returned to the spot of the fumble (whether beyond or behind the NZ)?

If the answer to any of those questions is "Yes," then the spot of the fumble should be marked with a spot marker (bean bag).

I'm not saying the answer is "Yes' to any of those. But you should check.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Not a NFHS expert, but maybe by asking these questions, you can arrive at the answer:
1) Is the spot of a fumble behind the NZ a Basic Spot?  - Not in NFHS
2) Is a fumble that goes out of bounds beyond the spot of a fumble returned to the spot of the fumble (whether beyond or behind the NZ)? - Not in NFHS
3) Is a fumble on 4th down or a try that is recovered by a player other than the fumbler returned to the spot of the fumble (whether beyond or behind the NZ)? - Not in NFHS

If the answer to any of those questions is "Yes," then the spot of the fumble should be marked with a spot marker (bean bag).

I'm not saying the answer is "Yes' to any of those. But you should check.

Good questions and the answer to all of those is no under NFHS rules.  That being said I am mostly working as the R these days and I prefer "bagging" those behind the line fumbles to simply acknowledge that there has been a fumble and the ball is still live.  IMHO it helps to eliminate the coaches rant that "If that's a fumble, why did nobody throw a beanbag?"

[lawdog]

Thanks

What is the purpose of a bean bag?  Unless you understand it is to mark the end of the run as a possible enforcement spot, you won't understand the answer to this question.  You don't mark a fumble, who cares where the fumble is, you mark the End of the Related Run as a possible enforcement spot. 

Now what is a play behind the line of scrimmage?  Its a loose ball play.  Where is the enforcement spot?  End of run?  NOPE. 

So, no you don't beanbag a fumble behind the line.  It just shows you don't know why you are throwing a bag in the first place.

[jason]

Agree w/ NVFOA_Ump AND lawdog.

There may not be penalty enforcement ramifications, but there are certainly game management aspects.

Easier to bag a fumble and manage the game than either:
A] Explain to a Coach why a fumble didn't get bagged
or
B] Explain to a Coach the nuances of penalty enforcement

[bama_stripes]

For years I refused to throw a bean bag on a fumble behind the LOS. This was partially because I knew there wouldnt be an enforcement spot there, and partially because I didn’t want to run back down the field to retrieve it if there was a long return.

Now I do.  Not only does it stop complaining from the sidelines, as others have mentioned, but it might also possibly prevent an IW from a crewmate who didn’t see the ball become loose.

[bossman72]

For years I refused to throw a bean bag on a fumble behind the LOS. This was partially because I knew there wouldnt be an enforcement spot there, and partially because I didn’t want to run back down the field to retrieve it if there was a long return.

Now I do.  Not only does it stop complaining from the sidelines, as others have mentioned, but it might also possibly prevent an IW from a crewmate who didn’t see the ball become loose.

There are instances when I agree to throw a bean bag behind the LOS.  Like on a QB pass/fumble so the crew knows if the R is working pass or fumble.
Also, sometimes you lose perspective on the LOS when the play is close to there, so just bag it when in doubt.  It really doesn't hurt anything.

Conversely, my pet peeve is bean bagging a QB muffing the snap.  That always shows that particular official has no idea what the bean bag is for.

[NVFOA_Ump]

What is the purpose of a bean bag?  Unless you understand it is to mark the end of the run as a possible enforcement spot, you won't understand the answer to this question.  You don't mark a fumble, who cares where the fumble is, you mark the End of the Related Run as a possible enforcement spot. 

Now what is a play behind the line of scrimmage?  Its a loose ball play.  Where is the enforcement spot?  End of run?  NOPE. 

So, no you don't beanbag a fumble behind the line.  It just shows you don't know why you are throwing a bag in the first place.

Don't agree.  We have adopted a policy of using a beanbag to acknowledge that there has been a fumble even if it is behind the LOS.  It serves a purpose as we have learned to let other officials know that the ball is still live but more importantly it's information for the coaches who were always asking if that was a fumble why did no one bag the spot?  I can assure you that WE KNOW why we are throwing a bag and when it may in fact be an enforcement spot.  It is also very helpful on those "fire drill" plays where there are reverses and changes of direction so we can verify if the fumble was behind or beyond the original LOS.

[TampaSteve]

Law, NVFOA and Boss all have fine, valid points from both sides of the fence.
Personally, I will follow what the mechanics tell me to do. - that way the evaluator cannot mark me for not following mechanics.

[CalhounLJ]

Personally, I can't help it. If I see the ball out, I throw the bag without thinking... Agree that technically it's not necessary, but it's also harmless and maybe even beneficial for the reasons posted above. IMO, we have bigger trainwrecks to worry about.

[lawdog]

There are instances when I agree to throw a bean bag behind the LOS.  Like on a QB pass/fumble so the crew knows if the R is working pass or fumble.
Also, sometimes you lose perspective on the LOS when the play is close to there, so just bag it when in doubt.  It really doesn't hurt anything.

Conversely, my pet peeve is bean bagging a QB muffing the snap.  That always shows that particular official has no idea what the bean bag is for.

Pass/Fumble
That's like punching backwards on an dropped backwards pass.  If it was forward I'd be killing it and signaling incomplete. If I'm not killing it, its backward or in this case its a fumble not a pass.  I just don't like the extra signals for no valid need.

I do definitely agree if you are unsure of the location in a wild play and its close to the line then bag it, that may be needed.

Those last guys? well...ya  They are what they are.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If you truly think that a bag is solely used to mark a possible penalty enforcement spot, so be it.  The bag IMHO is a useful tool we have for:

1.  Heads up to our crew to be aware that we have a fumble
2.  Heads up to both sidelines to know that we have seen a fumble
3.  Excellent tool when we have 2 (or more) bags down to confirm to everyone that more than one official has a fumble
4.  And, when needed we have an enforcement spot.

I have never had a single one of our many assignors over many years "ding" one of us for an "extra bag", but you don't want to miss one where we need it.

[GoodScout]

If you truly think that a bag is solely used to mark a possible penalty enforcement spot, so be it.  The bag IMHO is a useful tool we have for:

1.  Heads up to our crew to be aware that we have a fumble
2.  Heads up to both sidelines to know that we have seen a fumble
3.  Excellent tool when we have 2 (or more) bags down to confirm to everyone that more than one official has a fumble
4.  And, when needed we have an enforcement spot.

I have never had a single one of our many assignors over many years "ding" one of us for an "extra bag", but you don't want to miss one where we need it.

For these reasons, throwing a beanbag behind the LOS on a fumble is part of our state's mechanics. So no, it doesn't necessarily mean you don't know what you're doing.

[ncwingman]

I agree with most here that dropping the bean bag when you don't really need to isn't an issue. However, I've recently seen a few officials (mostly veterans, and veteran white hats at that) who seem to have lost the plot as to why -- they just react "fumble = bean bag" and make no attempt to actually marking the spot of the fumble. A play a saw a few times on a recent rainy JV night -- run up the middle, 3 or 4 yard gain, gets hit, wet ball slips out of his hands... white hat, who is now 10 yards behind the ball, see the loose ball and drops his bean bag at his own feet nowhere near the spot of the fumble.

Ultimately, we are trying to mark a spot with the bean bag even if it's unnecessary to do so. It shouldn't just be a "Hey I saw a loose ball" signal. I can be both.

[GoodScout]

And as we coach officials, you don't have to drop it at the actual spot of the fumble, although that's preferable. If you're a wing, just drop it on the yard line of the fumble, and we have the information we need should we need it as an enforcement spot.

[1Cor9:25]

Personally, I can't help it. If I see the ball out, I throw the bag without thinking... Agree that technically it's not necessary, but it's also harmless and maybe even beneficial for the reasons posted above. IMO, we have bigger trainwrecks to worry about.

Word of caution:
Don't bag because you see the ball out...bag because you see a fumble. You might see a ball out and a crewmate might have the ball carrier down by rule, a pass, etc. Don't bag a ball on the ground, bag a fumble.

[NVFOA_Ump]

And as we coach officials, you don't have to drop it at the actual spot of the fumble, although that's preferable. If you're a wing, just drop it on the yard line of the fumble, and we have the information we need should we need it as an enforcement spot.

 

[CalhounLJ]

Word of caution:
Don't bag because you see the ball out...bag because you see a fumble. You might see a ball out and a crewmate might have the ball carrier down by rule, a pass, etc. Don't bag a ball on the ground, bag a fumble.

If I see a ball out that might be a fumble, I'm bagging it. If my crewmate saw it better and overrules me, that's fine. It's kinda impossible to do what you are suggesting. If i have a ball in player possession and then all of a sudden it's on the ground, and I haven't clearly seen the ball carrier down, what else are you supposed to do? Huddle up, ask everyone, and then drop the bag?

[NVFOA_Ump]

If I see a ball out that might be a fumble, I'm bagging it. If my crewmate saw it better and overrules me, that's fine. It's kinda impossible to do what you are suggesting. If i have a ball in player possession and then all of a sudden it's on the ground, and I haven't clearly seen the ball carrier down, what else are you supposed to do? Huddle up, ask everyone, and then drop the bag?

[Ralph Damren]

Bagging a fumble beyond the line may mark the enforcement spot if a penalty is called. Most penalties by A/K behind the line are enforced from previous spot.

[Ralph Damren]

There are times when a beanbag can be used behind the LOS.....

(1) On a QB sack, he is usually driven back a few yards from his forward progress. Bag the spot of forward progress, retrieve the ball and flip to umpire atthe bag.

(2)On a potential  IG, bag the spot of passer. Once confirmed, replace bag with flag, It's not as conspicuous picking up a bag than a flag .

(3) If a scrambling QB is near/at/beyond LOS when passing, bag the spot of pass. After the play is over, eyeball bag with downs marker for possible IFP  .

(4) If  -out of habit - yuo bag a fumble behind LOS, there's no harm .