Another enforcement scenario - involving foul in end zone

[Fatso]

2nd down on A/3, handoff in backfield is botched and ball is loose rolling around in endzone.  B player bats the ball back into the field of play where it's recovered by B and advanced into the endzone.

[sj]

Assuming the line to gain is the A13, A12 or the A11....A 1/10 @ A13

10-4-2-g

[Fatso]

Assuming the line to gain is the A13, A12 or the A11....A 1/10 @ A13

10-4-2-g

So it's basically just a loose ball play, foul by B behind LOS,  10 yds from previous spot correct?

[bossman72]

B fouls are not enforced any further back than the previous spot.  You will never march off a B foul from the offensive backfield.

[Fatso]

B fouls are not enforced any further back than the previous spot.  You will never march off a B foul from the offensive backfield.

   thx

[zebraken]

B fouls are not enforced any further back than the previous spot.  You will never march off a B foul from the offensive backfield.

Doesn’t 10-4-4a contradict that?

[bama_stripes]

Doesn’t 10-4-4a contradict that?

.
The basic spot for a loose-ball foul is the previous spot.  Illegal batting/kicking is a loose-ball foul, and is enforced from the previous spot if by B behind the previous spot.

[dch]

That explanation sounds a lot like "3 & 1"  or  "all but one" penalty enforcement which is now banned.
Why does the phrase "basic spot" even exist in our language anymore?  Just say "enforcement spot" for the various scenarios.
I find "basic spot" references in the Rules Book to now be very confusing to those of us who have officiated a long time.
And the current definition of basic spot is totally useless.

[CalhounLJ]

That explanation sounds a lot like "3 & 1"  or  "all but one" penalty enforcement which is now banned.
Why does the phrase "basic spot" even exist in our language anymore?  Just say "enforcement spot" for the various scenarios.
I find "basic spot" references in the Rules Book to now be very confusing to those of us who have officiated a long time.
And the current definition of basic spot is totally useless.

Because the people who wrote the new rule do not understand the difference between basic spot and enforcement spot. Harsh, but true.

[bossman72]

Because the people who wrote the new rule do not understand the difference between basic spot and enforcement spot. Harsh, but true.

Exactly this.  You are both correct.

[dch]

Ralph,

How can this enforcement spot / basic spot confusion be brought to the attention of the powers that be.  The term "basic spot" is no longer relevant (or well defined). 
It is not good to sometimes use two terms for the same thing -- especially when they historically have been both significant and different.
There must be a way to politely but firmly get this point across and clean up the wording and confusion. 
It really is a problem for testing and on the field and a concern at our local level. 

[NVFOA_Ump]

OK, No debate, no question, this needs to be fixed.  Ralph what say you?

[Ralph Damren]

AFRBRO...(after further review by the replay official)....
Rule 2-41-1: The basic spot is a point of reference for penalty enforcement (10-4)  .
Rule 2-41-2:
The enforcement spot is the point from which a penalty is enforced.   

RULE 10-4-1 :If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the action that occurs during the down. This is the basic spot for penalty ENFORCEMENT.

After reading the entire 10-4 (pages 1 1/2) I found 'enforcement' only mentioned twice..."See 10-4-2b :..See 10-5-5 for special ENFORCEMENT on roughing the passer. See 10-5-1b for special ENFORCEMENT on kick-catching interference." I could not find any reference to 2-41-2 anywhere in rule 10 or under Football Fundamentals. While this would be an editorial change, not a rule change, I'll inquire why we need 2-41-2  ?.

 

[CalhounLJ]

B fouls are not enforced any further back than the previous spot.  You will never march off a B foul from the offensive backfield.

Which could have been part of a very simple fix regarding penalty enforcement. Add a similar statement for A fouls, with exceptions duly noted, kept the all-but-one philosophy, and it would have been a win-win. But no, instead we have this...

[dch]

Just banish the words "basic spot" from the rules book and tell us where the "enforcement spot" is for the various scenarios.
I really think this is a simple solution that is not hard to write or understand.   

[Steely Dan]

Just banish the words "basic spot" from the rules book and tell us where the "enforcement spot" is for the various scenarios.
I really think this is a simple solution that is not hard to write or understand.   

I hope this gets done. As a newer official trying to learn the rules, it would help clarify.