Author Topic: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.  (Read 11221 times)

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Offline SBEII

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Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« on: October 28, 2024, 11:29:24 AM »
Is there a written mechanic for spotting the ball when the spot is razor close to a 1st down. Down ends in middle of the field. Headlinesman has his hand up for the spot and it's inches from the line to gain.  Can you take the ball 20 yards across the field to get the spot dead on accurate?  And then measure?  I've done it this ways for years without issue but have been questioned on it 3 times this year. Placing it down in the middle of the field you are almost bound to be off a smidge....especially on natural grass or a poorly marked field.

Looking for the NFHS proper mechanic.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2024, 11:31:56 AM »
Never move the ball. Wings should come in and put their foot down as close to the ball as possible and then spot it on his foot.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2024, 11:59:27 AM »
Man comes to ball...not ball comes to man.

Only time to move the ball : Runner is down not holding ball perpendicular to the field, BJ holds the ball while R places his hat at forward part of ball. Ball is now adjusted to perpendicular with the field w/o gaining any distance. NOTE : If the field is muddy, R may ask BJ to use his hat.  ^talk

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2024, 01:28:05 PM »
Man comes to ball...not ball comes to man.

Only time to move the ball : Runner is down not holding ball perpendicular to the field, BJ holds the ball while R places his hat at forward part of ball. Ball is now adjusted to perpendicular with the field w/o gaining any distance. NOTE : If the field is muddy, R may ask BJ to use his hat.  ^talk

Uh, what was the discussion about not using the hat for players OB? Use a bean bag? Maybe use a bean bag for this purpose, as well (?). Yes? No?

Offline lawdog

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2024, 02:47:45 PM »
This is all a bunch of non-sense.  Spots are simply not precise enough to sweat these inches.  Any decent wing sees it is short or enough and then clearly marks accordingly.  You can't be precise, you aren't a machine and you have limited view with split second action.  Put it down and go.  And for the Love of God don't ever measure on 2nd down!!!!!!

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2024, 03:32:51 PM »
Never move the ball. Wings should come in and put their foot down as close to the ball as possible and then spot it on his foot.

On "close" plays approaching line to gain our mechanics are:

1.  Wing hustles in until he can no longer come in further and then holds the progress spot (NEVER go around players to get the spot)
2.  Ball is then handed or passed to wing to place at that spot he is marking
3.  If needed R is then called in to make the call
4.  When needed R decides on need for measurement

Simple fact is that virtually never the "spot" where the ball is "on the ground" is the actual forward progress spot.  Some body part being down and where the ball is at that instant is the correct spot.  Unless of course we have a true "forward progress spot" further up field.  In ALL of those cases we would be tossing the ball to the wing who has "the spot" for the determination of first down.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2024, 04:00:11 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Rich

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2024, 08:53:13 AM »
On "close" plays approaching line to gain our mechanics are:

1.  Wing hustles in until he can no longer come in further and then holds the progress spot (NEVER go around players to get the spot)
2.  Ball is then handed or passed to wing to place at that spot he is marking
3.  If needed R is then called in to make the call
4.  When needed R decides on need for measurement

Simple fact is that virtually never is the "spot" where the ball is "on the ground" is the actual forward progress spot.

With mostly turf fields on our schedule, I typically know if it's a first down or not, cause the ball needs to reach a yard line for a first down 99% of the time.  But I still bring them out when it's *that* close (and short, for perception especially on 4th down) or if the ball is spotted in a side zone (so I can move the ball more accurately). 

That said, if it's beyond the line to gain, we're moving the chains and telling the coach "he needed the 35, it's past the 35" and moving on unless it's 4th down/late in the game.

The LJ makes the call on a first down a vast majority of the time on our crew.

Offline BIG UMP

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2024, 11:23:08 AM »
This is all a bunch of non-sense.  Spots are simply not precise enough to sweat these inches.  Any decent wing sees it is short or enough and then clearly marks accordingly.  You can't be precise, you aren't a machine and you have limited view with split second action.  Put it down and go.  And for the Love of God don't ever measure on 2nd down!!!!!!

Some years ago, on a turf field I have a LJ come in with a spot right on the line.  I told him to make a decision about first or not and slide accordingly.  He did it a second time, remember what I told you  He did it a third time, as I was going in I "accidently stepped on his toe" it was a first down.
Big Ump


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Offline Fatso

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2024, 07:33:37 AM »
With mostly turf fields on our schedule, I typically know if it's a first down or not, cause the ball needs to reach a yard line for a first down 99% of the time.  But I still bring them out when it's *that* close (and short, for perception especially on 4th down)

What worries me on measurements for optics purposes is the goof ball chain crew not being set up exactly on the yard line.  If the ball is spotted just short or just over the line to gain, and then chains are off by a 1/4 or 1/3 of a yard and it gets botched.  Anyone ever had that happen?

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2024, 08:21:52 AM »
That's why you set up on sideline, attach clip, then move chains back.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Fatso

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2024, 01:18:18 PM »
That's why you set up on sideline, attach clip, then move chains back.

Some schools don't have a clip guy and chain crew itself is shaky at best.  I guess it wouldn't be a good look to move the chains up to the sideline then attach the clip then come onto field for measurement.. (BUTT backwards basically)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2024, 02:40:57 PM »
Some schools don't have a clip guy and chain crew itself is shaky at best.  I guess it wouldn't be a good look to move the chains up to the sideline then attach the clip then come onto field for measurement.. (BUTT backwards basically)

Although helpful, a dedicated clip guy isn’t essential. For each new first down, the box man can hold the rear stake, or the rear stake guy can hold the box, while the other quickly sets the clip, on the sideline, then they all move back, 6’ off.

A smartly marked field (very few, but there are some) will have 4”x4” yard line extensions at 6’ off the sideline at each of the “big lines” (as they are called today), for placing the clip with the chains already fully 6’ off. But, yeah, a dedicated clip guy is enormously helpful.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2024, 03:51:11 PM »


The LJ makes the call on a first down a vast majority of the time on our crew.
I don't remember the last time we had a measurement on a turf field.  And the LJ should make that determination.  The R looks to him/her, not the chains.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2024, 07:12:28 AM »
A smartly marked field (very few, but there are some) will have 4”x4” yard line extensions at 6’ off the sideline at each of the “big lines” (as they are called today), for placing the clip with the chains already fully 6’ off. But, yeah, a dedicated clip guy is enormously helpful.

Only been on a couple fields with these markings and it's awesome.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2024, 08:09:04 AM »
Only been on a couple fields with these markings and it's awesome.

We have had several schools convert to turf over the last couple of years.  Only ONE has those marks, and I can’t understand why the others don’t.  It should be standard, since it doesn’t cost any more.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2024, 11:27:10 AM »
We have had several schools convert to turf over the last couple of years.  Only ONE has those marks, and I can’t understand why the others don’t.  It should be standard, since it doesn’t cost any more.

In my business as an Architect, with the vast majority of our business being with schools, I know that the truth is that the plastic grass vendors don't care anything about following the requirements in the rules. They just want to sell the school what they think will look 'cool.' When we actually design a stadium, or are asked to provide a design for a new field at a stadium, then we have the ability to make the vendor provide the required markings, and NOT do things that are contrary to the rules (like having logos so large they interrupt yard lines). But, many schools just work directly with the vendors, and end up with all kinds of goofy markings. One field I know has the "restricted areas" marked solid white, as they are supposed to, but those solid white areas are only 3' wide (instead of 6'). So, we have even more heck keeping the coaches and players back. "We're off the white!" Sorry coach, just because the white marking is only 3' wide, the restricted area is still 6' wide. Get your hiney back there. Many fields don't have the required limit lines, so we have a hard time keeping photographers, end zone cameras, and other extraneous personnel/equipment at least 12' off the boundary lines. So, yeah, very few have the 4"x4" "big line" extensions 6' off the sideline. We see logos that span across 3 or 5 "big lines," which makes marking spots much harder in those areas, and makes measurements through those logos very, very problematic. They don't care. That 22 yard wide spider at mid-field just looks so cooooooool!  ::)   

Offline Fatso

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2024, 12:59:11 PM »
We see logos that span across 3 or 5 "big lines," which makes marking spots much harder in those areas, and makes measurements through those logos very, very problematic. They don't care. That 22 yard wide spider at mid-field just looks so cooooooool!  ::)

Like this?   hEaDbAnG




Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2024, 01:25:47 PM »
Like this?   hEaDbAnG



Pardon me. 25 yard wide logo.  :(

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2024, 07:13:00 AM »
While 1-2-3b2 states the allowance of a logo in the center ,it doesn't define where the center ends. A 'string line' is needed on each 5 yard line for measurement and spotting purposes.. :puke:

Offline Fatso

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2024, 07:50:17 AM »
While 1-2-3b2 states the allowance of a logo in the center ,it doesn't define where the center ends. A 'string line' is needed on each 5 yard line for measurement and spotting purposes.. :puke:

Watched a college game the other night, Western Mich I believe. Their logo was slightly transparent so you could see the yard lines and hashes.  Overall, unnoticeable to the naked eye but effective for the officials.

Offline Ted T

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Re: Spotting Ball when razor close to a 1st down.
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2024, 02:25:46 PM »

👍

On "close" plays approaching line to gain our mechanics are:

1.  Wing hustles in until he can no longer come in further and then holds the progress spot (NEVER go around players to get the spot)
2.  Ball is then handed or passed to wing to place at that spot he is marking
3.  If needed R is then called in to make the call
4.  When needed R decides on need for measurement

Simple fact is that virtually never the "spot" where the ball is "on the ground" is the actual forward progress spot.  Some body part being down and where the ball is at that instant is the correct spot.  Unless of course we have a true "forward progress spot" further up field.  In ALL of those cases we would be tossing the ball to the wing who has "the spot" for the determination of first down.