Rule 3.7.4

[BetweenTheLines]

I'm probably kicking a dead horse here. In a situation where the 12th man on defense is trying to get off of the field (no violation of the 3 second rule 3.7.1). Many officials tell me they have been instructed to blow the play dead if in their opinion the player will not get off of the field prior to the snap. Others have stated that there are no free plays in the NFHS. My questions are;
1. How do we know for sure when the ball will be snapped?
2. What if the offense commits a false start or some other pre-snap violation?
3. Why do we have this rule if we are just going to kill it?
Thanks, and Merry Christmas everyone.

[Ralph Damren]

Presuming that a foul is about to happen can be risky. B/R's coach can call timeout if he also presumes a foul is about to happen.In your #3, I'd rule that the IS & FS cancel. I've always felt that the fewer flags = the smoother the game. I felt the Pats might beat the Bills yesterday when they were up 14-0. I'm not always right.   

[lawdog]

I believe the idea is just trying to avoid nailing them for a 15 yd IP when a 5 yd IS is more than sufficient.  They aren't trying to get an advantage or actually getting an advantage for their mistake.  Don't give the A team 15 yds for nothing.  You have to just judge it.  When in doubt shut it down.  And if he's super close, just ignore it.  Nobody there to see flags or watch you prove you can be super-ref.

[AlUpstateNY]

I believe the idea is just trying to avoid nailing them for a 15 yd IP when a 5 yd IS is more than sufficient.  They aren't trying to get an advantage or actually getting an advantage for their mistake.  Don't give the A team 15 yds for nothing.  You have to just judge it.  When in doubt shut it down.  And if he's super close, just ignore it.  Nobody there to see flags or watch you prove you can be super-ref.

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[MAFBRef]

In Massachusetts, we have been advised to use the 5 yard penalty if he’s just late getting off the field as the snap happens. Use the15 yarder if he participates or is significantly out between the numbers.

[NVFOA_Ump]

When I was on a crew being "loaned" to RI before MA had switched to NFHS rules we were told that in RI if we have 12 on the field after counting twice that it is a blow and throw, no exceptions since we do not want a 15 yard penalty here.  Never had an issue with this and now enforce the same here in MA.  Have rarely had a complaint here in MA as coaches realize that the possible alternative would be a 15 yard IP.  The real issue here IMHO starts with 2-32-12 which basically states that a player becomes a "replaced player" when an entering substitute becomes a "player" which is when he crosses the 9 yard mark.  That's when the 3 seconds starts.  I've got no issue with calling virtually all of these DB fouls.  Our crew has been "dinged" for missing calling this a DB with the resulting IP, but never when we do call it a DB.

[AlUpstateNY]

When I was on a crew being "loaned" to RI before MA had switched to NFHS rules we were told that in RI if we have 12 on the field after counting twice that it is a blow and throw, no exceptions since we do not want a 15 yard penalty here.  Never had an issue with this and now enforce the same here in MA.  Have rarely had a complaint here in MA as coaches realize that the possible alternative would be a 15 yard IP.  The real issue here IMHO starts with 2-32-12 which basically states that a player becomes a "replaced player" when an entering substitute becomes a "player" which is when he crosses the 9 yard mark.  That's when the 3 seconds starts.  I've got no issue with calling virtually all of these DB fouls.  Our crew has been "dinged" for missing calling this a DB with the resulting IP, but never when we do call it a DB.

I suspect that most "complaining" comes from the coach responsible for the player failing to PAY ATTENTION,

[bossman72]

Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

If the 12th man on defense knows he's the 12th man and is trying to get off the field when the ball is snapped, this is a live ball illegal substitution foul.  5 yards, previous spot.  Doesn't matter how close he is.

If the 12th man on defense doesn't know he's the 12th man and is in formation and the snap is imminent, shut it down for dead ball illegal substitution, 5 yards.
If we don't kill it and he participates in the play, it turns into 15 yard illegal participation, previous spot.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If the 12th man on defense doesn't know he's the 12th man and is in formation and the snap is imminent, shut it down for dead ball illegal substitution, 5 yards.
If we don't kill it and he participates in the play, it turns into 15 yard illegal participation, previous spot.

Our preference is to follow the "count twice" system.  If you have 12 or more on EITHER side then count a second time.  If you've still got 12 then the 3 second rule has been more than exceeded and we blow and throw.  If while counting we have extra B player(s) heading off AND it's clear that they have a good chance of getting off before the snap we'll potentially let that go.  Offense gets 0 leeway since defensive alignments are keyed to who the A players are and where they are lined up.

[Fatso]

Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

If the 12th man on defense knows he's the 12th man and is trying to get off the field when the ball is snapped, this is a live ball illegal substitution foul.  5 yards, previous spot.  Doesn't matter how close he is.

I think the OP's point is that many states/associations are instructing their crews to shut this down if "the snap is imminent".  We're being asked to judge whether the snap is about to happen or not and shut the play down (even though technically the foul literally doesn't exist until the ball is snapped).  IMO, the play should continue and this is a live ball IS 5 yds like you said.  If the kid trying to get off the field comes back into the action and participates, then he deserves 15 yds for being dumb.  Killing this play takes away several possibilities like the player makes it off the field, there's a false start or other dead ball foul, offense gets a free mulligan, either team calls timeout, etc etc.   

[Ralph Damren]

I'm with Bossman, if #12 is trying to get of the field flag for IS if he's not off AT  the snap. If #12 is hanging out with his teammates on the field,  for DB IS. Treat  #12 trying to get off like we do an illegal shift. Like an illegal shift he/they can get off/reset before the snap and be legal. Timeout can be called by his/their coach to prevent a flag.