Rule 3-7-4 Question

[BetweenTheLines]

B is substituting late in the dead ball interval between downs. B's replaced player is leaving well within 3 seconds. The BJ blows his whistle and flags B for an illegal substitution foul because in his judgement the replaced player was not going to be able to get off of the field before the snap. Is this what you were taught? If that is true, then why do we even have Rule 3-7-4? A could false start if the whistle had not been blown. I'm confused as to why we were instructed in this way. An illegal participation foul clearly would not come into play. Thanks as always.

[lawdog]

No.  If he is leaving BJ has no way of knowing when they will snap it.  That is for guys not trying to leave and the offense starting their cadence.  This is extremely over-officious.

[GoodScout]

Even if he's not off the field at the snap, our direction is that if the player is outside the numbers, clearly and promptly leaving the field of play, not anywhere near the action, and not near other players, don't throw a flag.

For the rare opposing coach who bitches, I just say "Coach, we'll be doing the same for you."

[ncwingman]

I would only kill the play pre-snap if B has 12 in formation with nobody attempting to leave the field. If the replaced player is attempting to leave, regardless of how unlikely it is that he will make it, then it is a potentially a live ball foul at the snap.

Also, to quasi-agree with GoodScout - as a BJ I cannot confidently see the where the player is in relation to the sideline if he's close, and therefore gets the benefit of the doubt. If he's still 4 yards out, even if he's all by himself, he's still on the field at the snap. Procedural fouls that everybody can see need to be called, otherwise you just throw your own credibility out the window.

[bossman72]

The mnemonic I always used was:
--If the 12th player KNOWS he's the 12th player and he's trying to get off, give him a shot to get off before the snap.  If he doesn't, 5 yard ILS, previous spot.
--If the 12th player DOES NOT KNOW he's the 12th player and is making no attempt to leave, shut it down when the snap is imminent.  5 yard ILS.
--If you miss it and he participates, now it's 15 yard ILP, previous spot.

Rule change I'll be submitting makes all of these 5 yard penalties, since yardage shouldn't be determined by how quickly we can count.

[Ralph Damren]

Even if he's not off the field at the snap, our direction is that if the player is outside the numbers, clearly and promptly leaving the field of play, not anywhere near the action, and not near other players, don't throw a flag.

For the rare opposing coach who bitches, I just say "Coach, we'll be doing the same for you."

We direct our wings to play on the sidelines and stay focused on the LOS. If a big ole' Bubba is waddling off the field but is beyond your side vison,still stay focused on LOS. False starts, encrouchment and the like are much more important to the game than if Bubba had all his toes off the field.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The mnemonic I always used was:
--If the 12th player DOES NOT KNOW he's the 12th player and is making no attempt to leave, shut it down when the snap is imminent.  5 yard ILS.

As the R my preference is to follow the "3 sec rule" more closely.  We count and have 12, we count a 2nd time and have 12 and still no one is leaving.  That's well beyond 3 seconds and should, IMHO, draw a flag regardless of where we are in the "ready to snap" situation.  At lower levels if we have time we're giving the "count your players", but not at the varsity level.  One of my pre-game notes to the crew is that we will not have any IP's for player(s) who were on the field at the snap.  the pre-snap counts are one of our easy tasks, we should be able to get that right.

[TampaSteve]

We direct our wings to play on the sidelines and stay focused on the LOS. If a big ole' Bubba is waddling off the field but is beyond your side vison,still stay focused on LOS. False starts, encrouchment and the like are much more important to the game than if Bubba had all his toes off the field.

...and if the wings move forward off their sideline just for a moment, perhaps up to the numbers, big ole bubba passes by them out of their sight and the wing wasn't positive whether he made it OOB or not.

[BetweenTheLines]

I came across this video from one of our states district meetings, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZOFGWCa5g0&list=PLwQGkmhmufS6rm4IRx4sPu4TWtrbNZ0Va&index=7&t=629s at the 7:38 mark the instructor says, " If you count 12 and the 12th kid has to run all the way across the field, if you know there is not way he is going to get there before the ball is snapped. Are you going to kill it? " Yes!

[AlUpstateNY]

FWIW, It seems the basic logic behind most/every rule remains, Is someone gaining an unfair advantage over their opponent. PLAYING with an extra player  is clearly such an "Unfair Advantage", which would include attempting to confuse an opponent, or (actually) blocking/ impeding an opponent. 

Judging whether the action of a player leaving the field lays FIRMLY in "the eye of the beholder" (NOT the Coaching staff, opponents, or spectators/sideline media) if YOU believe the action YOU are observing creates an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, YOU have the right & responsibility to act upon YOUR conclusion, or to DECLINE taking action. That decision is YOUR'S and your's ONLY, and unsolicited advice about your decision  simply DOESN'T MATTER (unless YOU deem it excessive and worthy of punitive action).
 

[bama_stripes]

Here’s why this can be problematic:

“If their defense is base, we’re gonna go downfield.  If they’re in nickel or dime, we’re gonna run a draw or screen.”  When DB #22 is late leaving the field, it changes the whole dynamic.

I get that we don’t want to interrupt the flow of the game with what appears to be a ticky-tack penalty.  But the defense screwed up, and it may well give them an advantage that’s not readily apparent.

[AlUpstateNY]

IF/WHEN you honestly conclude, the defense IS/HAS gained an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, A FLAG IS APPROPRIATE, otherwise a post/play constructive admonition, might be the wiser approach.

[VALJ]

The mnemonic I always used was:
--If the 12th player KNOWS he's the 12th player and he's trying to get off, give him a shot to get off before the snap.  If he doesn't, 5 yard ILS, previous spot.
--If the 12th player DOES NOT KNOW he's the 12th player and is making no attempt to leave, shut it down when the snap is imminent.  5 yard ILS.
--If you miss it and he participates, now it's 15 yard ILP, previous spot.

That’s basically what I’ve been taught.  If there’s 12 on the field and one is trying to get off, he has he opportunity to do so, and it would be an ILS at the snap.  If there’s 12 in the formation and nobody is leaving, shut it down as a dead ball ILS.