2025 S-B Pre-season Quiz 4

[ElvisLives]

I feel pretty good about this one. I know we've had disagreement about DOG in #1, so we shall see what the "big boys" say.
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1. Free Kick @ A-35. The kickoff is high and deep, and deep receiver B21 gives the “T signal” as the kick is in flight. B21 catches the kick right at the goal line and returns the kick back to the B-35.
RULING:
B, 1/10, B-20, snap (25).
The catch of the ball by B21 following his invalid fair catch signal causes the ball to become dead immediately. Since the ball is dead behind B’s goal line, the succeeding spot is the B-25. B21 commits a foul for delay of game by advancing the ball after making the catch. The five-yard penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot, taking the ball to the B-20, where Team B will put the ball in play by snap, 1/10. Because of the penalty completion, the play clock is set to 25-seconds and will start on the referee’s signal.

2. 2/10 @ B-40. After the Two-Minute Timeout in the second quarter and the clock running, Team A has no timeouts remaining. Ball carrier A12 throws a backward pass out of bounds from the B-32 to conserve time.
RULING:
A, 3/7, B-37, 10-second subtraction from the game clock, ready (25).
A12 commits a foul for an illegal pass thrown out of bounds to conserve time. The 5-yard distance penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul, taking the ball to the B-37. The penalty incudes loss of down, and the game clock will start on the referee’s signal. Because the foul occurred during the last 2-minutes of the second period, Team B has the option of a 10-second subtraction from the game clock.

3. 2/20 @ B-40. A44 takes the handoff and gains 12-yards on the play. During the down B55’s helmet comes off without a helmet foul by Team A. B55 immediately picks up his helmet, puts it back on and then chases the ball carrier and is almost in on the tackle.
RULING:
A, 1/10, B-14, ready (25).
B55 commits a foul for continued participation after his helmet has come completely off. The 15-yard personal foul penalty is enforced ˝ the distance to the goal from the end of the run, taking the ball to the B-14, and includes a first down. B55 may not participate in the next down, unless Team B is granted a charged team time out.

4. 2/5 @ B-40. Back A22 takes a backward pass from the quarterback, circles right end, and heads for the goal line. Guard A66, who had pulled out to lead the play, legally blocks B90 to the ground and then stands over him at the B-30 taunting and screaming obscenities. This draws a flag from the head line-judge, when A22 is at the B- 10 before continuing into the end zone.
RULING:
A, 2/10, B-45, snap (25).
A66 commits a live-ball foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. The 15-yard penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul taking the ball to the B-45, and the down is repeated. Because of the apparent touchdown, the game clock will start on the snap. A66 has one foul added to his UNS ‘counter’ toward ejection.

5. 2/7 @ B-30. B55 is lined up in the neutral zone at the snap. Back A22 takes the ball on a quick play up the middle, bursts into the open, and at the B-10 he turns around and prances backward into the end zone. The head line-judge and the line judge both have flags for the offside foul, and the back judge drops his flag for the action by A22.
RULING:
A, 2/7, B-30, snap (25).
B55 commits a live-ball foul for offside. A22 commits a live-ball foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. Those fouls offset, the touchdown is canceled, and the down is repeated at the previous spot. A22 has one foul added to his UNS ‘counter’ toward ejection. Because of the apparent touchdown, the game clock will start on the snap.

6. 2/5 @ A-30. Snapper A55 lifts or moves the ball forward before moving it backward to start the snap. B52 bats the ball, causing it to roll loose with B73 recovering at the A-31.
RULING:
A, 2/10, A-25, [clock status indeterminate] (25).
A55 commits a dead-ball illegal snap by moving the ball forward and lifting it before moving it backward in the snapping action. Since the ball never became alive, all action afterward is immaterial and is ignored. The five-yard penalty for the illegal snap is enforced at the succeeding spot, taking the ball to the A-25, and second down continues.

7. 2/10 @ A-15. Team A’s backward pass in flight is batted by B51 at the A-10, and the ball goes out of bounds behind Team A’s goal line.
RULING:
A, free kick, A-20, free kick timing (25).
B51’s batting of a backward pass in flight (in any direction) is legal, and it does not impart new impetus on the ball. The impetus remains with Team A’s backward pass; thus, the result of the down is a safety – 2 points for Team B, and Team A will have a free kick at the A-20.

8. 2/10 @ B-30. After intercepting a legal forward pass at the B-20, B21 fumbles at the B-38. At the B-35, B44 intentionally bats the loose ball, which goes forward and out of bounds at the B-40.
RULING:
B, 1/10, B-25, snap (25).
B44 commits a foul for illegally batting the ball forward. The 10-yard penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul, taking the ball to the B-25, where Team B will next put the ball in play by snap, 1/10.

[ElvisLives]

1. OK, by this answer, the big boys are telling us to ignore 6-5-2. (Well, take the frickin' rule out, then. Why have a rule that we are told to ignore?)

6. Not a huge thing, but they say "Ready" for the clock status. But we don't know if the clock was running, or stopped (awaiting a snap). If running, yeah, "Ready." If stopped, then, "Snap."

[dammitbobby]

on #1: ''Because of the penalty completion, the play clock is set to 25-seconds and will start on the referee’s signal."

Since it was a free kick, wouldn't it be at 25 and start on R's signal anyways, not BECAUSE of the penalty completion?

[ElvisLives]

on #1: ''Because of the penalty completion, the play clock is set to 25-seconds and will start on the referee’s signal."

Since it was a free kick, wouldn't it be at 25 and start on R's signal anyways, not BECAUSE of the penalty completion?

Bobby, for “NCAA” contests, in the absence of something else that would make the play clock 25 and start on the referee’s signal (such as a penalty completion), the first down following a free kick is a 40-second play clock, and starts when the ball becomes dead at the end of the free kick down.

For those of you/us that work UIL Football (Texas high school), the UIL has made an Exception to that rule, and the play clock is 25, and starts on the referee’s signal for the first down following a free kick down. You may be thinking of that.

[dammitbobby]

Yep that would explain it... I've occasionally worked juco/D3 games as a supplemental, but never realized that it was an exception, since the vast, majority of games I work are UIL and that's the norm.

[ljudge]

On #3, PC is supposed to be :40, not :25.  I always thought an admin stoppage would supersede as I too thought :25.  The rules aren't clear on this but someone shared a play with me that was reviewed and approved by people at a much higher paygrade. 

As he is about to be tackled near the sideline, ball carrier A22 throws the ball backward and out of bounds to stop the clock. During the play B35’s helmet comes off.
RULING: Foul by A22, backward pass thrown out of bounds to conserve time (Rule 7-2- 1). Five-yard penalty at the spot of the foul, plus loss of down.

• B35 must leave the game for one play.
• Team B may keep B35 in the game by being granted a team timeout.
• No option for the 10-second runoff because the actions causing the clock to stop are by
opposing teams.
• Play clock: 40 seconds.
• Game clock starts on the referee’s signal.

[ElvisLives]

Now we need to scrub the 2025 book to see what editorial changes may have been made that may support this ruling.

[ElvisLives]

I don’t see anything in the rules or AR’s that are different for 2025 than previously, with respect to a penalty completion AND a helmet off during the same down. 3-4-c-1 and 3-4-c-14 each specify a play clock duration for different events, but did not specify if either supersede the other. It would appear that Shaw is trying to tell us, indirectly, that the helmet off takes precedence, and the play clock is 40-seconds. Fine by me, but edit the rules to make that clear. Not that difficult.

[peterparsons]

Applying 40s for a helmet off and a penalty completion is actually contradictory to the wording of 3-3-10-b (my bold emphasis)

When the helmet coming off is the only reason for stopping the clock, other than due to an injury to the player or their teammate (Rule 3-3-6), the following conditions apply (A.R. 3-3-10-I-III):

If a flag has been thrown, the helmet off is clearly not the only reason the game clock was stopped, so logic says we should ignore the rest of 3-3-10-b as it doesn't apply to the situation.

If that's not what they want, I agree, they need to edit the rules.

[blindtxzebra]

I don’t see anything in the rules or AR’s that are different for 2025 than previously, with respect to a penalty completion AND a helmet off during the same down. 3-4-c-1 and 3-4-c-14 each specify a play clock duration for different events, but did not specify if either supersede the other. It would appear that Shaw is trying to tell us, indirectly, that the helmet off takes precedence, and the play clock is 40-seconds. Fine by me, but edit the rules to make that clear. Not that difficult.

AR 3-2-4-V clarifies this for both a helmet off and an injury for Team B. PC = 40

[ElvisLives]

AR 3-2-4-V clarifies this for both a helmet off and an injury for Team B. PC = 40

Yeah, I think I overlooked that one from last year. So, like I said, Shaw apparently wants the play clock to be 40 - which is good. The language of 3-4-2-c is still ambiguous. “1” tells us 25, “5” tells us 40 for defense, and “14” tells us 40 for offense. But, none of them say that they take precedence over any of the others. Simple to fix. But, the AR gives us direction until the day the rule gets edited.

[sj]

Running the idea of going to 40 through different situations like this, it seems the common sense thing to do.

Especially in situations where time is critical, like if it’s a one-score game with under five minutes left. There are multiple scenarios, but if A is ahead (or about to go ahead - say with a field goal) then they could milk the clock for an extra 15 seconds in a situation where B had just screwed up twice on a play (B HO and a B foul as in play #3 on this test). If Team A is behind, they most likely will be wanting to snap the ball quickly anyways so 40 or 25 wouldn’t matter.

[peterparsons]

If B foul and A accept the penalty, they will, at a minimum, get to play the down again (so get to burn an additional 25s anyway), or possibly even get an entire new series (where they will be able to burn a lot more than that).

B Helmet off (only) on 2nd down - 40s PC on 3rd down. A can burn 40s.

B foul (only) on 2nd down - 25s PC on 2nd down again, then 40s PC on 3rd down. A can now burn 65s.

B foul on 2nd down, plus HO - why would we now give A even more time to burn over and above that? 40s PC on 2nd down again, then 40s PC on 3rd down. A now gets to burn 80s.

The 40s on B rule came in to avoid B gaining an advantage from the HO making the PC 25. If it was going to be a 25 anyway without the HO because e.g. there's a flag and we're going to do the play over, making it 40 after the penalty doesn't seem common sense to me.

[ElvisLives]

Yes, 40 is the right thing to be done in certain circumstances. Not arguing that point. I’m neither a judge nor a lawyer, but I do have a fairly good grasp of the English language. As 3-2-4-c is written, in one place (item “1”) we are told that the play clock is to be 25 seconds, because of the penalty administration. However, in another place (item “14”) we are told that the play clock is to be 40 seconds, because of the helmet off. Neither rule makes deference to the other. And no other rule tells us that one takes precedence over the other(s) when two, or more, of the listed conditions occur in the same down sequence. The AR does, indeed, give us guidance. In the past, when an ambiguity occurred in the rules, John Adams or Rogers Redding might issue a bulletin to correct the ambiguity until the rule language could be fixed, then they would fix the rule language in the next book.
I am just asking to fix the rule language. Not that difficult.

[peterparsons]

I'd argue that 3-3-10-b's use of the words "only reason" tells us that the penalty administration takes precedence over the helmet off ("only reason" suggests that we ignore 3-3-10-b-1 and 3-3-10-b-1 simply replicates 3-2-4-c-14), however that interpretation directly contradicts AR 3-2-4-V.

I completely agree with you that the rule book language needs fixing.