Is a backwards pass a loose ball play? (for penalty enforcement purposes)

[Fatso]

2-33-1 lists a backwards pass (including the snap) as a loose ball play
10-3-1 lists only free kick/ scrimmage kick and legal forward pass.  No mention of backwards pass


Scenario:  While running an option play behind the LOS, QB is blown up by B55 clearly after pitching the ball backwards to the RB (foul occurred while ball was in flight).  RB gains 2 yards on the play.  For the 15 yd UNR foul on B55, do you penalize from the previous spot or end of run?

[ilyazhito]

A backwards pass should be a loose ball play, because the ball is not in player possession. This is the key to the difference between a muff and a fumble. You can muff a snap but you cannot fumble a snap. Any play has a loose ball play (the snap), then a running play, and then another loose ball play (forward pass or kick), followed by one or more running plays. Those running plays can be interspersed by other loose ball plays (backward passes).

[dch]

only if the backward pass is occurs behind the line of scrimmage.

[Ralph Damren]

Remember, guys, that if the runner beyond the LOS attempts a backwood pass BUT it lands as a forward pass = IFP . An IFP is a spot foul per 10-4-4b & 7-5-1b or 10-3-2. If a 'forward pitch' was treated as a loose ball play, a runner could have gained 50+ yards before the illegal act, previous spot enforcement would be very unfair.

[Fatso]

A backwards pass should be a loose ball play, because the ball is not in player possession. This is the key to the difference between a muff and a fumble. You can muff a snap but you cannot fumble a snap. Any play has a loose ball play (the snap), then a running play, and then another loose ball play (forward pass or kick), followed by one or more running plays. Those running plays can be interspersed by other loose ball plays (backward passes).

  I should have clarified my question and I've since added it to the thread subject.  If a foul occurs during a backwards pass (like a pitch from QB to RB running an option) does that get enforced from the previous spot or end of run?   Let's say B55 blows up QB clearly after pitching the ball backwards to the RB (foul occurred while ball was in flight).  RB gains 2 yards on the play.  For the 15 yd UNR foul on B55, do you penalize from the previous spot or end of run?

[ilyazhito]

Previous spot. This was a backwards pass "made by A from in or behind" their neutral zone prior to a change of team possession (2-33-1-c).

[bossman72]

The easiest way to do this (loosely with the rulebook):

Loose ball plays are only from legal passes and legal kicks.
Everything else is a run.
Any runs that end behind the LOS, the basic spot moves to the LOS.

[bama_stripes]

A backwards pass should be a loose ball play, because the ball is not in player possession. This is the key to the difference between a muff and a fumble. You can muff a snap but you cannot fumble a snap. Any play has a loose ball play (the snap), then a running play, and then another loose ball play (forward pass or kick), followed by one or more running plays. Those running plays can be interspersed by other loose ball plays (backward passes).

There can be only one LBP during a down (FF IX-6).  There’s a difference between “a foul during a loose ball play” and “a foul while the ball is loose” (not in player possession).

Note, however, that a LBP can only happen behind the LOS.  Past the LOS, the basic spot is the end of the related run.

[Fatso]

There can be only one LBP during a down (FF IX-6).  There’s a difference between “a foul during a loose ball play” and “a foul while the ball is loose” (not in player possession).

Note, however, that a LBP can only happen behind the LOS.  Past the LOS, the basic spot is the end of the related run.

  So for this scenario where foul occurred during a loose ball play, but the run ended beyond the LOS, would you enforce from previous spot or end of run?

[VALJ]

  So for this scenario where foul occurred during a loose ball play, but the run ended beyond the LOS, would you enforce from previous spot or end of run?

Deleted - I forgot the original discussion was during a loose ball play and brain cramped, even though it was right there.

[Fatso]

Per table 10-4, if the foul is by B and the run ends beyond the LOS, the foul would be enforced from the end of the related run (bottom two entries on the chart).

But the foul didn't occur during the run, it occurred during the loose ball play segment of the down.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Per table 10-4, if the foul is by B and the run ends beyond the LOS, the foul would be enforced from the end of the related run (bottom two entries on the chart).

That would be the wrong entries per the 2024 chart since the foul by B must have been behind the LOS as noted above by ilyazhito. The bottom 2 lines of table are for fouls beyond the LOS.  Important piece of information missing from original post is where was the flag/foul?  That's an important part of the information.

[VALJ]

But the foul didn't occur during the run, it occurred during the loose ball play segment of the down.

You’re right, I brain cramped.

[Ralph Damren]

Remember, guys, you can have several runs during a play. Hense the importance of the 4 W's in penalty enforcement : who, what, WHEN, where.

Note, a 5th W can be added in some occations : A holding call with 1:00 to go and a 40-0 score  ??           WHY

[NVFOA_Ump]

Remember, guys, you can have several runs during a play. Hense the importance of the 4 W's in penalty enforcement : who, what, WHEN, where.

Note, a 5th W can be added in some occations : A holding call with 1:00 to go and a 40-0 score  ??           WHY

 

[Fatso]

Important piece of information missing from original post is where was the flag/foul?  That's an important part of the information.

Behind the LOS, running an option play.  I added it to the OP now, thanks.