Late Hit at the end of the half

[ncwingman]

Watching Pitt/WVU, and the play at the end of the half got me thinking.

If you didn't see it - WVU QB runs up the middle for 12 yards on 1st and 10. Gets tackled with :01 on the clock, followed by a late hit by Pitt. Since there was :01 on the clock, and WVU had no time outs, the half was declared over as the clock would run on the ready and therefore they could not get the play off. I assume this is the correct interpretation. The net result is that the penalty wasn't realistically enforced.

What I started thinking about was what series of events needed to happen here, and if any of them were different how could things be enforced differently.

1) Obviously, if WVU had a timeout, they'd get an additional play with 1 second left.
2) Was the fact they reached the line to gain significant? Would they have the option of calling the timeout if he had only gained 8?
3) Since it was a dead ball foul (by definition), had time expired the penalty would not extend the half and be enforced the second half kickoff, correct?

[Legacy Zebra]

It sounds like a something went wrong here. But to be sure, 2 questions.

1. What was the score at the time?

2. Did time expire on the field, but replay showed :01 left? Or was there actually :01 left on the field?

3. Did the Referee actually announce the half was over with time left on the clock?

To answer your questions:

 

• There is no rule or interpretation that says we can just declare a period over because there is one second left.
• If the team had a timeout, they could absolutely use it and get another down.
• Making the line to gain does affect this situation. If he had been short of the line to gain, this would be a foul that stopped the clock which would trigger a 10 RO. Obviously the offense would decline the runoff. And anytime a runoff is declined, the clock is automatically on the snap, so the offense would get to snap the ball.
• Yes, if time expired on the down, the half would end and the 15 yards would be enforced on the opening kickoff of the second half.

[ncwingman]

It sounds like a something went wrong here. But to be sure, 2 questions.

1. What was the score at the time?

2. Did time expire on the field, but replay showed :01 left? Or was there actually :01 left on the field?

3. Did the Referee actually announce the half was over with time left on the clock?

It was 7-3 WVU at the time, but since it was the first half, not sure how that's relevant.

The clock ran out, but replay showed the runner down with :01 left

The announcement was "However, the line to gain was reached with 1 second on the clock, by rule, because West Virginia does not have any time outs, the half is over". In their huddle before the announcement, you can see the white hat mention something about "less than three seconds in the half".

[ElvisLives]

Watching Pitt/WVU, and the play at the end of the half got me thinking.

If you didn't see it - WVU QB runs up the middle for 12 yards on 1st and 10. Gets tackled with :01 on the clock, followed by a late hit by Pitt. Since there was :01 on the clock, and WVU had no time outs, the half was declared over as the clock would run on the ready and therefore they could not get the play off. I assume this is the correct interpretation. The net result is that the penalty wasn't realistically enforced.

What I started thinking about was what series of events needed to happen here, and if any of them were different how could things be enforced differently.

1) Obviously, if WVU had a timeout, they'd get an additional play with 1 second left.
2) Was the fact they reached the line to gain significant? Would they have the option of calling the timeout if he had only gained 8?
3) Since it was a dead ball foul (by definition), had time expired the penalty would not extend the half and be enforced the second half kickoff, correct?

I know of no rule or AR that says one-second is not enough to snap the ball upon the RFP signal (at the end of the first or third period). Being the second period, not likely that Team A would accept the 10SS. If not accepted, then the game clock would start on the snap. So, they could definitely get to snap the ball.

Yeah, reaching the line-to-gain is what caused the game clock to stop. Had the ball carrier been stopped short of the line-to-gain, inbounds, I would say that the game clock probably would have expired before anybody would have got the clock stopped for the late hit.

Yes, if the game clock expired before the foul, then the game would be at halftime, and the penalty would be enforced on the third period kickoff.

[ElvisLives]

It was 7-3 WVU at the time, but since it was the first half, not sure how that's relevant.

The clock ran out, but replay showed the runner down with :01 left

The announcement was "However, the line to gain was reached with 1 second on the clock, by rule, because West Virginia does not have any time outs, the half is over". In their huddle before the announcement, you can see the white hat mention something about "less than three seconds in the half".

Hmmm. The 3-second rule is to be able to spike the ball to stop the clock. But that wouldn’t keep Team A from running a play to advance the ball, or even make a field goal attempt. This will need some sort of clarification or correction from Shaw.

[Legacy Zebra]

Ok, so with the new information, the crew did get this one right. If time expires on the field, replay can only restore time if at least one of three conditions are met: the clock would start on the snap, Team A has a timeout remaining, or there should be 3 or more seconds remaining. In this case, none of those conditions are met, so the half is over. The score is relevant because 3-4-3 applies in both halves. If Team A had been behind, 3-4-3 could apply which would give them the option to hold the clock until the snap, which would allow replay to restore time.

[ElvisLives]

Ok, so with the new information, the crew did get this one right. If time expires on the field, replay can only restore time if at least one of three conditions are met: the clock would start on the snap, Team A has a timeout remaining, or there should be 3 or more seconds remaining. In this case, none of those conditions are met, so the half is over. The score is relevant because 3-4-3 applies in both halves. If Team A had been behind, 3-4-3 could apply which would give them the option to hold the clock until the snap, which would allow replay to restore time.

OK. Quite voluntarily, I know/knew next to nothing about Replay, even back when I was working FBS football. Although far simpler back then, I just couldn’t grasp what was reviewable (which has grown exponentially since 2012), and what wasn’t. I leave that to smarter people.

[ncwingman]

Ok, so with the new information, the crew did get this one right. If time expires on the field, replay can only restore time if at least one of three conditions are met: the clock would start on the snap, Team A has a timeout remaining, or there should be 3 or more seconds remaining. In this case, none of those conditions are met, so the half is over. The score is relevant because 3-4-3 applies in both halves. If Team A had been behind, 3-4-3 could apply which would give them the option to hold the clock until the snap, which would allow replay to restore time.

So it really hinges on the fact that replay had to put the time back on the clock?

It makes sense to me, but I feel I'm going to have trouble explaining it sufficiently to a WVU fan as to why the late hit foul just... isn't enforced in that scenario. Granted, it's a very unlikely scenario (I doubt I'd ever see it again), but it's a weird loophole.

It was a dead ball foul that occurred with time on the clock, so it must be enforced in that period. However, since time ran out erroneously, and replay couldn't put time back on the clock, the penalty couldn't be enforced in that period and therefore could not be enforced at all.

[Legacy Zebra]

Yeah, the penalty enforcement I think is a separate issue that I forgot to include in my last reply. I don’t necessarily have anything in writing to prove it, but my opinion is the penalty should have been enforced on the second half kickoff. By rule, the half ended prior to the foul.

[zebrastripes]

https://x.com/tjmcaulay/status/1967004080473252224

[bossman72]

So there was a play a few years ago at (I think) Auburn where there was a long pass for a first down and the runner went down with 0:00 on the clock.  Replay shows he was down with 0:01 on the clock.  During the review, Auburn ran their field goal team out there and kicked a field goal at the end of the half when the R blew the RFP.  Had they got it right on the field, it's unlikely they would have gotten their field goal team out there.

So they made a replay rule that if the runner is down with 2 or 1 seconds on the clock inbounds for a first down (and no time outs for the offense) then replay will not correct the clock.  Only with 3 seconds will they correct the clock.
 
This play is weird because the foul creates a wrinkle.  It's not the same scenario.  Do you add time back on because of the foul now?  I would think yes.  Enforce the 15, put 1 sec on the clock and go on the ready.


Edit to add:  Looks like even with them expiring the half, they did not enforce the dead ball foul on the 2nd half kickoff.  Woops!

[Imperial Stout]

It was the 2019 Iron Bowl that was the trigger for replay's ability to add time at the end of the half when the clock will start on the RFP.  That seems fine for a "neutral" stoppage of only being the LTG being made. Though in this example where the stoppage was combined with a dead ball foul, seems to make the overall outcome unfair.

Teams that foul should be punished.  Maybe a broader interpretation of 3-4-3 to cover this case?

[peterparsons]

It was 7-3 WVU at the time, but since it was the first half, not sure how that's relevant.

Rule 3-4-3-b - After the 2 minute timeout, if the foul was by the team ahead in the score or the score is tied, the non-fouling team has the option to start the game clock on the snap if it would otherwise start on the RFP.

[ncwingman]

Rule 3-4-3-b - After the 2 minute timeout, if the foul was by the team ahead in the score or the score is tied, the non-fouling team has the option to start the game clock on the snap if it would otherwise start on the RFP.

I'm more familiar with the Fed rules, and there there is no restriction on the score. Under 2 minutes the offended team has the option to start the clock on the snap, regardless of score. That's why it didn't register right away.

[peterparsons]

I'm more familiar with the Fed rules, and there there is no restriction on the score. Under 2 minutes the offended team has the option to start the clock on the snap, regardless of score. That's why it didn't register right away.

A rule difference I wasn't aware of. Good to know. Thank you.

[ElvisLives]

So there was a play a few years ago at (I think) Auburn where there was a long pass for a first down and the runner went down with 0:00 on the clock.  Replay shows he was down with 0:01 on the clock.  During the review, Auburn ran their field goal team out there and kicked a field goal at the end of the half when the R blew the RFP.  Had they got it right on the field, it's unlikely they would have gotten their field goal team out there.

So they made a replay rule that if the runner is down with 2 or 1 seconds on the clock inbounds for a first down (and no time outs for the offense) then replay will not correct the clock.  Only with 3 seconds will they correct the clock.
 
This play is weird because the foul creates a wrinkle.  It's not the same scenario.  Do you add time back on because of the foul now?  I would think yes.  Enforce the 15, put 1 sec on the clock and go on the ready.


Edit to add:  Looks like even with them expiring the half, they did not enforce the dead ball foul on the 2nd half kickoff.  Woops!

----------------
As I have stated numerous times, I am no expert on Replay, and don't want to be. But, in my mind, I just didn't want to accept that, if Team A had earned a first down, and replay is able to determine there is 1 second on the game clock, Team A wouldn't be given a chance to snap the ball before the "horn sounded." In natural play, if the game clock had been stopped at 1 second (which I had happen at Nevada vs Boise State in 2010, but Boise did have a time out), that Team A wouldn't have the chance to get to the line and be set when the R chopped and whistled the ready after the ball is spotted. It doesn't take a full second for the snapper to begin the movement of the ball, so they should at least have the opportunity to try. If they are still getting into position, yeah, they is no way they can all be set for one second, so they'd get an Illegal Shift or False Start, and the play would not be successful, and then the game would be over. But, in the right circumstances, a smart team could get set and be ready to snap the instant the R chopped/whistled the ready (especially after a replay stoppage) and get one last down. To take that opportunity away is just wrong, IMHO.
But I did find the "Case Book" situation:

139. Game clock at end of half
Third and 10 on the A-45 with 0:12 on the game clock, Team A has no timeouts. QBA1 completes a long pass to receiver A86 at the B-15 where he is tackled in bounds and the game clock expires. Replays show that after completing the catch A86 was down with (a) 3 seconds remaining on the game clock; (b) 2 seconds remaining on the game clock. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether the pass was complete and whether there should be time remaining on the game clock at the end of the play. In (a), A 1-10 on B-15, reset game clock to 0:03 and start on the referee’s signal (Rule12-3-6-c). In (b) since there is 0:02 remaining, the clock will start on the referee’s signal, and Team A has no timeouts remaining, the half is complete. If Team A has a timeout remaining, they may elect to take the timeout and restore 0:02 to the game clock.

That sucks, IMHO.

[dammitbobby]

139. Game clock at end of half
Third and 10 on the A-45 with 0:12 on the game clock, Team A has no timeouts. QBA1 completes a long pass to receiver A86 at the B-15 where he is tackled in bounds and the game clock expires. Replays show that after completing the catch A86 was down with (a) 3 seconds remaining on the game clock; (b) 2 seconds remaining on the game clock. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether the pass was complete and whether there should be time remaining on the game clock at the end of the play. In (a), A 1-10 on B-15, reset game clock to 0:03 and start on the referee’s signal (Rule12-3-6-c). In (b) since there is 0:02 remaining, the clock will start on the referee’s signal, and Team A has no timeouts remaining, the half is complete. If Team A has a timeout remaining, they may elect to take the timeout and restore 0:02 to the game clock.

That sucks, IMHO.

That AR will get changed as soon as a P5 team gets hit with this ruling at the end of a close game and they're told sorry, even though there's 2 seconds on the clock, game is over.  Cannot imagine how some coaches would react to that.

[bossman72]

That AR will get changed as soon as a P5 team gets hit with this ruling at the end of a close game and they're told sorry, even though there's 2 seconds on the clock, game is over.  Cannot imagine how some coaches would react to that.

I mean, the inverse happened and they made the rule because of it.

[dammitbobby]

I'm not sure that the inverse was the root cause though? Why would there be an issue if there was a foul where time expired, and replay can definitively say there were 2 seconds left, so they put them back on?

[Imperial Stout]

If a foul was committed, there would have been plenty of time for the offense to bring on their FG team as the clock would have been stopped to administer the foul.  The screw up in drafting the rule was by not adding the provision to indicate the only reason the clock would have been stopped was because the LTG was made after replay tries to fix things.  It was written way too general to include any situation where the clock starts on the RFP.

[ElvisLives]

OK, so we are all right, just with different circumstances.
Per Shaw's weekly video, if replay gets involved, THEY can't restore less than 3 seconds on the game clock. So, in this game, because replay got involved, half over, and that is correct by printed replay procedure. Now, I understand that the penalty didn't get enforced on the third period kickoff. Shaw talks abut the fact that the penalty should be enforced on the second half kickoff, but he didn't make mention whether it did., or didn't in this game.
Now, if replay DOES NOT get involved, i.e., without replay assistance, the crew on the field are able to determine that even as little as 1 second remains, the crew can have that time put on the clock, and Shaw mentions that a good team could be ready to snap right when the R sounds/signals the ready, and could possibly snap before the clock expires.

So, there ya go.

[sj]

Ok, so with the new information, the crew did get this one right. If time expires on the field, replay can only restore time if at least one of three conditions are met: the clock would start on the snap, Team A has a timeout remaining, or there should be 3 or more seconds remaining. In this case, none of those conditions are met, so the half is over. The score is relevant because 3-4-3 applies in both halves. If Team A had been behind, 3-4-3 could apply which would give them the option to hold the clock until the snap, which would allow replay to restore time.

It would seem that if the score criteria was removed from 3-4-3-b then West Virginia would have the option for the game clock to start on the Snap. Assuming they would want that, it would mean Replay could restore time. Would that be correct?

[wvoref]

It would seem that if the score criteria was removed from 3-4-3-b then West Virginia would have the option for the game clock to start on the Snap. Assuming they would want that, it would mean Replay could restore time. Would that be correct?

Retired high school official but still rules geek.  If they didn't have that option and ran fg team onto field wouldn't umpire prevent them from snapping ball to allow defense to substitute basically running clock out?

[ilyazhito]

No. Late field goals are an example of situations where both teams need to be aware that a substitution could happen, so the officials will not stop A from snapping the ball after substituting the field goal team on.

[Kalle]

No. Late field goals are an example of situations where both teams need to be aware that a substitution could happen, so the officials will not stop A from snapping the ball after substituting the field goal team on.

And for all those rules geeks this is codified in A.R. 3-5-2-VII.