ING and 3-4-6

[zebrastripes]

Late in the game (less than 1:00 remaining) A is down 7 and driving to tie the score. On a first, second, or third down play QB A1 is under heavy duress and intentionally grounds a forward pass.

Are we all in agreement that, since we don’t have a 10-second runoff in FED, the Referee should invoke Rule 3-4-6 and start the clock on the ready?

[bama_stripes]

I would.  But I’d be sure that A’s coach & QB know that the clock will start on my whistle.

[zebrastripes]

I would.  But I’d be sure that A’s coach & QB know that the clock will start on my whistle.

Absolutely. And give them a chance to call timeout if they have any left.

[bossman72]

I think it's only if he is trying to conserve time illegally you can go on the ready.  If he's avoiding a loss of yardage like in your play, then it should go on the snap.  I'd ask your interpreter if you should use 3-4-6 in this instance to go on the ready so everyone is consistent.  Here's a case play that talks about grounding when trying to spike it, which is obviously trying to conserve time.

3.4.7 SITUATION A: With time expiring inside the last two minutes in the second
or fourth period and A behind in the score, Al intentionally throws the ball
forward to the ground in order to stop the game clock. Al's action took place: (a)
immediately after receiving the snap while Al was lined up 3 yards deep; or (b)
immediately after receiving the snap; or (c) after Al delayed and throws an illegal
forward pass. RULING: In (a) and (b), the grounding is legal and the game clock
remains stopped until the subsequent snap. Illegal forward pass in (c), and the
game clock shall be started on the ready-for-play signal unless Team B chooses
to start the game clock on the snap. (7-5-2d EXCEPTION)

[zebrastripes]

If it’s under a minute left (as OP indicates) in either half I think you can safely assume they’re trying to conserve time.

[animalspooker]

Is there not a rule saying, if under 2 minutes, a team in the lead, trying to run the clock out, commits a penalty...you start the clock at the snap.  Conversely, a team behind that's trying to save time, commits a foul, you start the clock at RFP?

Basically you benefit the offended team, as it pertains to the clock, when under 2 minutes?

[zebrastripes]

Is there not a rule saying, if under 2 minutes, a team in the lead, trying to run the clock out, commits a penalty...you start the clock at the snap.  Conversely, a team behind that's trying to save time, commits a foul, you start the clock at RFP?

Basically you benefit the offended team, as it pertains to the clock, when under 2 minutes?

The “under 2 minutes rule” only allows you to start the clock on the snap if it would otherwise start on the ready (the inverse is not true), at the option of the offended team. The relevant rule in this situation is 3-4-6 which grants the R broad authority to change the “normal” clock status (in this case, starting it on the snap) to prevent a team from benefiting by committing a foul.

[Fatso]

Good question.

On one hand, you can say he's already losing the yardage and the down.  But if it allows an additional play, hail mary, whatever.... and they score then the QB got one over on you.  I think the guys here are right, inform coach and QB clocks starts on the ready.

[zebrastripes]

An easy fix by the NFHS rules committee to make this “universal” would be to just require the clock to start on the ready after all illegal incomplete forward passes, including intentional grounding. Wouldn’t require any new exceptions or applying 3-4-6 and leaving it up to the judgment of individual Referees.

[lawdog]

I'm with Bossman.  Rule doesn't support starting on ready for throw to save yardage, I'd only go there if clear trying to save time. e.g. has a short pass option in middle of field but instead throws intentionally incomplete.  That's what its for.  Let's not try to assume most pimply faced 17 year old QB's are Peyton Manning level game strategists while about to be tackled.

[zebrastripes]

There’s less than a minute left in the game. He’s clearly trying to conserve time. If you don’t start the clock on the ready (or make Team A use a timeout if they have any left to avoid the clock on the ready) you are letting Team A get a timing advantage by committing a foul.

If 3-4-6 doesn’t apply in this situation then it may as well be removed from the book.

[sj]

Even though 3-4-6 seems to speak to motive, the net result of an illegal forward pass thrown to consume time or save yardage is the same.  That being in this situation, if the game clock is started on the snap Team A will have gained an advantage from having fouled.

[refjeff]

Bossman already cited case book 3-4-7 situation A. 

That is the answer.

[ncwingman]

Let's not try to assume most pimply faced 17 year old QB's are Peyton Manning level game strategists while about to be tackled.

I agree with this. When the QB is facing down the entire defensive line, he's probably thinking about saving his own skin, not the clock. There are many topics on this board where people seem to assume the average teenage player is smarter than most NFL players.

That being said, I'd also not be opposed to zebrastripe's proposal of saying the clock starts on the ready after an incomplete illegal forward pass as a global rule and just avoid having to even consider motive.

[zebrastripes]

The net result of the play is the exact same whether or not the QB is actively thinking “Oh crap, I better dump this ball to save seconds.” It is not our job to judge what’s going through the quarterback’s brain.

A gets a stopped clock due to a foul and by not invoking 3-4-6, you are effectively giving A another play that they wouldn’t have gotten if the QB was sacked and the clock kept running. Common sense, the rule book, and the case book play cited above, tells you that you have to start the clock on the ready. Tell the A coach you’re going to do this, and if he has timeouts left he’s free to use one to get the clock on the snap.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The net result of the play is the exact same whether or not the QB is actively thinking “Oh crap, I better dump this ball to save seconds.” It is not our job to judge what’s going through the quarterback’s brain.

I disagree here.  The rule requires us to make the judgment that the pass was dumped to conserve time.  That's 100% clear in the rule wording and in the case play. The onus is on us to make that decision.  We can't take the "easy way out" and automatically assume (that bad word) that the reason for the illegal pass was to conserve time.

[zebrastripes]

I disagree here.  The rule requires us to make the judgment that the pass was dumped to conserve time.  That's 100% clear in the rule wording and in the case play. The onus is on us to make that decision.  We can't take the "easy way out" and automatically assume (that bad word) that the reason for the illegal pass was to conserve time.

There’s less than a minute in the game and A is losing. On what planet do you think B’s coach would accept that you don’t believe A’s QB was trying to conserve time?

3.4.7 Situation A cited above supports going on the ready. That really should be the only answer people need, but I just cannot believe that we aren’t using common sense here to make sure A doesn’t gain a timing advantage by committing a foul.

[NVFOA_Ump]

There’s less than a minute in the game and A is losing. On what planet do you think B’s coach would accept that you don’t believe A’s QB was trying to conserve time?

3.4.7 Situation A cited above supports going on the ready. That really should be the only answer people need, but I just cannot believe that we aren’t using common sense here to make sure A doesn’t gain a timing advantage by committing a foul.

Well that's all well and good, but the ACTUAL timing advantage would in most games be close to ZERO.  We are REQUIRED to let everyone know that we will be winding on the ready and A can be sitting in formation waiting for us to complete our administrative tasks before we wind.  That does not minimize the requirement that we make the judgment that A was trying to conserve time and not save loss of yardage.

[Ralph Damren]

If I was a mind-reader I would be in the circus. If the QB intentionally dumps the pass,very late in the game, when trailing,  I'm going to apply 3-4-6. I'll announce to the trailing team that the clock will start on the RFP. I've also applied 3-4-6 when a false start by A , in a simular late/score situation. I've never had any A coach question that....to me,that seems fair. 

[Fatso]

Well that's all well and good, but the ACTUAL timing advantage would in most games be close to ZERO. 

In the OP, A is trailing with less than a minute in the game.  How would a stopped clock starting on the snap not be an advantage compared to a sack + clock continuing to run?

[zebrastripes]

If I was a mind-reader I would be in the circus. If the QB intentionally dumps the pass,very late in the game, when trailing,  I'm going to apply 3-4-6. I'll announce to the trailing team that the clock will start on the RFP. I've also applied 3-4-6 when a false start by A , in a simular late/score situation. I've never had any A coach question that....to me,that seems fair. 

Glad to see a member of the Rules Committee agreeing about the right thing to do, by rule and by common sense.

Given that there’s disagreement on this topic, I do wonder if it’s worth exploring a rule change to start the clock on the ready after all IFP/ING fouls regardless of time in the game. That way there is no debate about the clock status on plays like this, and 3-4-6 is completely taken out of the equation. Wouldn’t require any exceptions, which we know NFHS hates. You would still have rare situations where the snap supersedes the ready (e.g. IFP after a change of possession), but we already have a rule to cover that.

[zebrastripes]

In the OP, A is trailing with less than a minute in the game.  How would a stopped clock starting on the snap not be an advantage compared to a sack + clock continuing to run?

I’m guessing his argument is that even if the clock is to start on the ready, A can still be lined up in formation ready to snap the ball immediately upon the whistle. But there is a much higher risk of a pre-snap or procedural foul in a hurry-up situation like that with high school players, so I would argue that it’s still a significant unfair advantage to have the clock start on the snap.

The most fair thing would be to have a 10-second runoff since A still avoids the clock continuing to run on a sack. But, since most HS stadiums don’t have microphones for the referee, that’s pretty much a non-starter for the rules committee.

[Fatso]

I’m guessing his argument is that even if the clock is to start on the ready, A can still be lined up in formation ready to snap the ball immediately upon the whistle.

Ah, ok I see what he means now.

[lawdog]

The net result of the play is the exact same whether or not the QB is actively thinking “Oh crap, I better dump this ball to save seconds.” It is not our job to judge what’s going through the quarterback’s brain.

A gets a stopped clock due to a foul and by not invoking 3-4-6, you are effectively giving A another play that they wouldn’t have gotten if the QB was sacked and the clock kept running. Common sense, the rule book, and the case book play cited above, tells you that you have to start the clock on the ready. Tell the A coach you’re going to do this, and if he has timeouts left he’s free to use one to get the clock on the snap.

He has a dead clock because it was an incomplete pass.  He isn't gaining anything but saving yardage if he's facing down a long sack.

[zebrastripes]

He has a dead clock because it was an incomplete pass.  He isn't gaining anything but saving yardage if he's facing down a long sack.

An incomplete pass that was illegal, and thus a foul.