Author Topic: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt  (Read 7551 times)

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Offline zebrastripes

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South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« on: October 13, 2025, 01:57:00 PM »
Unfortunately I can find a decent video to link. Right around 5:00 in the 3Q, South Carolina has 4th and 5 and lines up in an unusual but legal formation. They sub late and the Referee goes into iron cross and gets in front of the punter. The R backs away, SC snaps the ball and the punter completes a pass for what likely would have been a first down. However, after the snap, the R killed the play and threw a flag that he announced as “illegal procedure.”

Any ideas of what the potential foul was for? The R had backed away and dropped the iron cross, and neither the C nor U continued holding the snap,  so I’m not sure how it could be related to substitution. And if there was an issue with the formation (as we all know trick plays have to be 100% legal), that obviously would not have killed the play.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2025, 02:04:39 PM by zebrastripes »

Online dammitbobby

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2025, 02:19:42 PM »
I can't either, but I was halfway watching it and I was puzzled by the sequence... did not see a reason for the play to be stopped.

Although now that I think about it, was a TO called right before? That might explain why the C wasn't standing over the ball, holding the snap, and R may not have made it RFP yet.

Just guessing.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2025, 02:22:36 PM by dammitbobby »

Offline zebrastripes

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2025, 02:56:13 PM »
There was not a timeout before. Play clock was :40 and running from the third down play.

Online dammitbobby

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2025, 02:59:18 PM »
No idea then.

Here's another one that is completely perplexing to me: https://x.com/PardonMyTake/status/1977205951104270795

Online ElvisLives

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2025, 03:45:35 PM »
No idea then.

Here's another one that is completely perplexing to me: https://x.com/PardonMyTake/status/1977205951104270795

Another case of a coach losing his mind to the point that he makes a signal that wasn't what he was wanting. Very obvious that he believed the defense was using a clapping signal, and he wanted the officials to call a foul. Since they weren't calling a foul (and, from the given video, we have no way of knowing what was actually happening), the coach didn't want the ball to be snapped, so he did the only thing his pea brain could think to do and that was yell and scream "They're clapping! They're clapping!" while he ran toward the wing official using a signal that is universally accepted as being a request for a time out. The wing saw the signal and stopped the action and signaled to the R that the coach wanted a time out. Then you can see the coach panic and start yelling, 'I didn't want a time out - they're CLAPPING!' After a few moments, the wing finally understands, and you can see his shoulders drop and an "Oh crap" expression appear on his face. Then he goes to the R to explain that the coach didn't want a time out, but he wanted a foul for clapping.
My opinion: tough crap coach. You used a signal that is universally understood as a request for a time out, and that's what you got. We'll take it under advisement that you believe the defense is using a clapping sound. We'll look & listen for it. You have two timeouts remaining.




Offline zebrastripes

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2025, 04:59:25 PM »
Given that Hugh Freeze, while on the field, chucked his headset after the controversial goal line review in the first half and was predictably not penalized for it – I think it’s fair to predict that the crew would be worried about the fallout of standing their ground on the timeout and p***ing off the king of the SEC coaches.

Offline bossman72

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2025, 06:05:39 PM »
Unfortunately I can find a decent video to link. Right around 5:00 in the 3Q, South Carolina has 4th and 5 and lines up in an unusual but legal formation. They sub late and the Referee goes into iron cross and gets in front of the punter. The R backs away, SC snaps the ball and the punter completes a pass for what likely would have been a first down. However, after the snap, the R killed the play and threw a flag that he announced as “illegal procedure.”

Any ideas of what the potential foul was for? The R had backed away and dropped the iron cross, and neither the C nor U continued holding the snap,  so I’m not sure how it could be related to substitution. And if there was an issue with the formation (as we all know trick plays have to be 100% legal), that obviously would not have killed the play.

It might be possible that he called it for illegal numbering since it's "not obvious a scrimmage kick will be attempted".  Purely guessing on my part though.

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2025, 06:16:15 PM »
It might be possible that he called it for illegal numbering since it's "not obvious a scrimmage kick will be attempted".  Purely guessing on my part though.

He said the R stopped the action immediately after the snap, so it wouldn’t be any sort of live-ball foul, as illegal numbering would be. I, too, had the thought that the ball must have been snapped before it had been declared ready for play. THAT is a dead-ball foul.

Offline zebrastripes

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2025, 07:19:37 PM »
Yeah, the R killed the play after the snap and announced the foul as “illegal procedure, offense number 24.” And I’d link the clip here, but not a single clip of this play is anywhere to be found on the internet and I can’t screen record the ESPN replay. Of course you can find the clip of the coach screaming at the R afterwards pretty easily, but no clip of the actual play in question.

Offline Imperial Stout

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2025, 11:12:16 PM »
The coach in the post game press conferences claimed the explanation he was given was the ball was snapped too early following the substitution. For this particular fake, the coach said it was the personal protector that would have signaled for the snap.

Offline zebrastripes

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2025, 07:37:03 AM »
The coach in the post game press conferences claimed the explanation he was given was the ball was snapped too early following the substitution. For this particular fake, the coach said it was the personal protector that would have signaled for the snap.
My question is how early is “too early” to snap the ball? On the film the R is standing in front of the punter with the iron cross. He then backs away, drops the cross, ball is snapped, whistle and flag stops the play. I guess I’m just not sure what Team A is supposed to do differently there.

And if the foul was for snapping too early, it should have been announced as delay of game. Instead, it was announced as the non-existent term “illegal procedure.”

Offline Imperial Stout

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2025, 08:52:54 AM »



Hopefully this shows up. I froze this a couple of frames after the snap. Yeah, there is the iron cross mechanic is still present at the snap, though the snapper likely isn't going to see anything.


https://youtu.be/7s9kotAG3xQ?si=_w99-9Wld9LeCOzk&t=7379

Offline zebrastripes

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2025, 09:05:34 AM »
Thanks for finding that. In the video the R is dropping his cross as the ball is snapped. If the U isn’t standing over the ball I don’t know how you expect A to know that the ball can’t be snapped. The R should have stayed in front of the punter until A was truly clear to snap the ball.

Online dammitbobby

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2025, 09:22:10 AM »

Online dammitbobby

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2025, 09:23:41 AM »
I think the reason they were still in sub mechanics is because LSU only had 10 players on the field (that I can see)

Offline Imperial Stout

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2025, 09:55:48 AM »
There was a returner deep that came into the picture after the fake that was shut down was run.

Late substitution with the play clock running down, with the snap occuring at about 5 seconds just before the R dropped the iron cross. The R wanted to get out of the way so the snap could occur quickly. Though, there still was no way for A to know exactly when to snap it with no one over the ball or in front of the punter.

Online dammitbobby

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2025, 09:59:15 AM »
yeah I didn't even think about there being a deep returner. Derp on my part.


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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2025, 10:49:04 AM »
OK, it may not have been the most elegant of processes, but let's give the R credit for being current with the rules. AR 3-5-2-V was changed for 2025 to make this first occurrence an immediate Delay of Game foul on Team A for snapping the ball before the substitution process is completed. (Previously, this was "No foul," on the first occurrence.) With the 'iron cross,' the R was successful in notifying the world that the 'substitution process' was now in progress, and the ball was not to be snapped until the team is released to do so. Even the H uses the iron cross. The AR is very clear that, if the officials can't prevent the snap, the ball remains dead, and a DOG on Team A results.
Mechanically, could things have been better? Undoubtedly. The C was miles behind the NZ, and didn't appear to even attempt to get to the ball. The U wasn't exactly close, but, with some hustle, he could have got to the snapper, had he begun the instant the sub came off the sideline. Lacking either of those two things happening, the R did what he could do by stepping in front of the punter. I don't fault him for stepping away from being in a direct line. Perhaps he could have stayed slightly forward of the punter, in his vision, to keep him from calling for the snap.
But, the period of time for Team B to BEGIN a substitution started when the sub got into position on the line (not when he stepped on the field), and that period of time had only just started as the R began to move back. At that moment, the R was still in the 'iron cross,' and Team B had 3 seconds from then to BEGIN a substitution. The ball was snapped immediately, far before the expiration of Team B's time period for beginning a substitution. That's a foul (for 2025). It would have been wrong to have allowed the play to happen.

All this garbage about, "How is the snapper supposed to know..." yada, yada, yada. Talk to the coach that didn't get the players on the field in a timely manner. Where is the criticism of that guy?
Let's place the blame where it belongs, and that is on Team A, for failing to have their players on the field in time. They broke the rule, and got penalized.
The play clock was at 6 when the ball was snapped, and the 3-second window had only just begun. LSU could have waited 2-more seconds to begin, then easily have taken 4 more seconds to get a player in place on defense, and SC would still have gotten a DOG foul.

Everybody (in the media and SC fans) can stop whining now, and move on.

Kudos to the R for making the call. Next time, though, use S21, and announce, "Delay of game, offense; snapping the ball before the substitution process had been completed; that's a 5-yard penalty - 4th down." And further kudos to the R for having the game clock start on the snap for the next down (by rule, after a DOG from a scrimmage kick formation). I have no problem with the officiating.

Offline zebrastripes

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2025, 11:12:14 AM »
Your explanation makes sense. To be clear I am not an SC fan. But as someone who works FED rules where we don’t have the iron cross, it was a little unclear to me what was illegal about this. But now it makes more sense.

(It’s probably a good thing NFHS doesn’t allow the defense time to match up. I can only imagine the amount of high school officials totally screwing up a situation like this.)

Online dammitbobby

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2025, 12:12:35 PM »
The only thing I'm not clear on is the mechanics for the H - he appears to be punching back (but no one on his side was off the line), and doesn't actually go into the the iron cross until a fraction of a second before the snap. What was he trying to communicate with the punch back?


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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2025, 03:48:52 PM »
The only thing I'm not clear on is the mechanics for the H - he appears to be punching back (but no one on his side was off the line), and doesn't actually go into the the iron cross until a fraction of a second before the snap. What was he trying to communicate with the punch back?

Nothing the H did, or didn’t do, had any cause or effect on what happened. Team A’s coaching staff didn’t do their jobs, and therein lies the cause and blame for this issue.
On 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, both the C and U may have been in better positions to attempt to get to the ball, and still have opportunity to move to officiating positions when released. Late in the play clock on 4th down, they probably weren’t too anxious to get mixed up in the line action, and I don’t blame them.
This is a good learning moment for all of us. If we have a late sub like this, this is not our fault. We do what we can to prevent the snap until the R releases the snap. If the ball gets snapped early, with or without an official actively attempting to prevent the snapper from snapping the ball, that is still on Team A. Plain and simple. Sound the whistle and throw the flag, and enforce the DOG. Chop the ready for play, with the game clock to start on the snap.

Offline bossman72

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2025, 04:23:04 PM »
...
« Last Edit: October 14, 2025, 10:31:05 PM by bossman72 »

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2025, 08:22:03 PM »
Nothing the H did, or didn’t do, had any cause or effect on what happened.

Oh I know, I was just trying to ascertain what he was signaling for my betterment and understanding.

Offline GoodScout

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2025, 12:31:01 PM »
Your explanation makes sense. To be clear I am not an SC fan. But as someone who works FED rules where we don’t have the iron cross, it was a little unclear to me what was illegal about this. But now it makes more sense.

(It’s probably a good thing NFHS doesn’t allow the defense time to match up. I can only imagine the amount of high school officials totally screwing up a situation like this.)
Oh just wait. There's people on the Rules Committee who want to mimeograph the NCAA playbook and AR's and make them the new NFHS book.

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Re: South Carolina vs. LSU Fake Punt
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2025, 12:51:30 PM »
Oh just wait. There's people on the Rules Committee who want to mimeograph the NCAA playbook and AR's and make them the new NFHS book.

“…mimeograph…”
Now you’re showing your gray hair. And, by recognizing that term, so am I. ;)