Taking a Knee

[animalspooker]

Question:  I see a lot of crews, when a team is taking a knee toward the end of the half/game, tell the defense not to fire off.  Strictly a protection thing, and I understand why it is done, but with the BS you see pulled in the NFL (maybe NCAA), I'm surprised there isn't a lot of griping about it.  Do you guys see this and is this what we are supposed to be doing?  I have noticed that if O says they're taking a knee, the ref will tell the defense not to fire off and that he will be blowing it dead regardless of the O's action...hereby eliminating any threat of a fake knee taking.

[Fatso]

We tell the QB to go straight down, don't back up and start dancing.  I've never seen a QB fake the knee and try to gain yardage but I guess it's possible.  We would kill it if he did that, and probably flag him for UNS.

[animalspooker]

But do you tell the defense not to fire off?

[dammitbobby]

We tell the QB to go straight down, don't back up and start dancing.  I've never seen a QB fake the knee and try to gain yardage but I guess it's possible.  We would kill it if he did that, and probably flag him for UNS.

Is there an NFHS rule regarding this?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Is there an NFHS rule regarding this?

No specific rule but this is a sportsmanship call.  If team A announces that they are taking a knee, then they are taking a knee and my whistle will sound right after the snap, no exceptions.

[bossman72]

Don't tell the defense anything or alter your mechanics.
If the offense says "We're taking a knee", tell the O-line "Hey, protect the QB and protect yourselves.  It's not a dead play."

There are 2 reasons a team takes a knee.  1) To not fumble the ball and 2) To show mercy.
The defense has every right to play football.  Not coming across is just a gentleman's agreement.
If you tell the defense not to come across and the offense fumbles the snap, now what?

[Fatso]

But do you tell the defense not to fire off?

Yes - in games that are clearly decided.  If it's a one score game or something like that, then no.

[bama_stripes]

“Offense, keep blocking.  Defense, don’t do anything stupid.  QB, go straight down.”

[lawdog]

I've never seen a QB fake the knee and try to gain yardage but I guess it's possible.  We would kill it if he did that, and probably flag him for UNS.

no no no no!  There is no rule support for this.  Its a dick move but that isn't illegal.

[riffraft]

Arizona's Taking a knee protocols
6.12 VICTORY FORMATION PROTOCOL
 When a team is ahead by 9 or more points and can take a knee(s) to run out all of the remaining clock,
officials will request for the leading team to declare their intent on whether they will be taking a knee.
The officials will then inform the other team of the decision.
 If the leading team wishes to enter the victory formation, the officials will ensure that both teams
understand and are expected to end the game in a sportsmanlike manner and without further contact.
 If the offensive team declares that they will be utilizing the victory formation, and runs an offensive
play, then the officials will rule this an unfair act.
 If the offense fumbles the snap the ball is live and can be recovered by either team.

[NVFOA_Ump]

no no no no!  There is no rule support for this.  Its a dick move but that isn't illegal.

We'll disagree on that.  9-9-5 is more than adequate to cover this.

[Fatso]

no no no no!  There is no rule support for this.  Its a dick move but that isn't illegal.

We can agree to disagree.

[Ralph Damren]

We had to deal with this 10+ years ago.....

SCENE: Under 1 minute to go, leading team (21-7) when they recovered a fumble at A's 5.

ACT I : QB yells "I'm taking a knee" and does. Big ole' Bubba (LB) decks snapper 

ACT II : Fight breaks out , 3 players DQed 

ACT III : Both coaches agree to end the game. 



EPILOGUE : Safety is the top priority in high school sports. It became my job to 'invent' a cure. I felt I didn't need to re-invent the wheel if somebody/some state had already had. I found such in the Ohio Gold Book. We adopted theirs which went sorta' like this ...

A. If the team is leading by less than nine, play as always.

B. If player or coach announces to ref, "We are taking a knee"; ref then announces <"TAKING A KNEE, LAY OFF..LAY OFF."

c. QB needs to take snap and knee, any delay would kill the play. If QB than ran with the ball, play killed & QB gets USC. 

D. Any B player contact is PF & DQ if flagrant. 

Introduced this at next years Coach Clinic and had full acceptance as they also agreed that safety and sportsmanship are vital to high school football.

[bossman72]

Yes - in games that are clearly decided.  If it's a one score game or something like that, then no.

In a game that's clearly decided, if the offense is concerned about the defense firing off, then run a dive play up the middle instead of taking a knee.

[AlUpstateNY]

In a game that's clearly decided, if the offense is concerned about the defense firing off, then run a dive play up the middle instead of taking a knee.

Football can be a very emotional game, and "player supervision" related to safety is of utmost importance. Excessive "emotional payback" at the end of a disappointing game, benefits NOBODY and should ALWAYS be prevented.

Announcing avoidance of the "ultimate "Cheap Shot" in a "Taking the knee" situation is a practical and prudent, protective measure to avoid needless and unnecessary excessive frustration from ruining, what hopefully had been a positive experience for both teams.  Deliberate abuses, for either team, should be dealt with severely, up to and including disqualification, for guilty players, and where necessary for supportive, complaining Coaches.   

[Ted T]

Only ever had one defensive team not honor a victory formation in a less than one score game.  I mentioned to the team B coach that they were taking a knee.  He said, "And we're trying to force a fumble."  I told the offense it's a live play.  I didn't mention to the B coach that his nose guard would be called for encroachment if he succeeded in his effort to slap the ball during the snap.  And, yeah, I was hoping that nose guard succeeded.

[AlUpstateNY]

Reminding BOTH Teams of "player safety" precautions, at ANY point, does not seem problematic.

[GoodScout]

Only ever had one defensive team not honor a victory formation in a less than one score game.

We just had this happen at the end of the Vermont Div. 1 Championship yesterday. Middlebury was in a victory formation to run off the last minute on the clock, and a St. Johnsbury player decided to crash the line and level the QB. I was watching online, so I don't know what else happened, but St. J. got nailed for a PF and a subsequent USC. Crew came in close as Middlebury kneeled one more time and that was it.

[AlUpstateNY]

Unfortunately, even prudent, practical, predictable and usually effective preventive and/or immediate countermeasures are no absolute guarantee against STUPID, PREMEDITATED, UNACCEPTABLE behavior. in such instances. Only serious, and quickly & consistently applied serious corrective measures, (Disqualification, Penalty and subsequent Team corrective action by appropriate sources), serve as practical deterrents and/or effective remedies.

[refjeff]

We just had this happen at the end of the Vermont Div. 1 Championship yesterday. Middlebury was in a victory formation to run off the last minute on the clock, and a St. Johnsbury player decided to crash the line and level the QB. I was watching online, so I don't know what else happened, but St. J. got nailed for a PF and a subsequent USC. Crew came in close as Middlebury kneeled one more time and that was it.

What was the score?

Was the QB under center?

Was the QB hit after or before his knee touched the ground?

[GoodScout]

What was the score?

Was the QB under center?

Was the QB hit after or before his knee touched the ground?

14-7.
Yes, but quickly took a step back and took a knee.
Hit took place a full second later after whistles blew and he was rising up.

[refjeff]

14-7.
Yes, but quickly took a step back and took a knee.
Hit took place a full second later after whistles blew and he was rising up.

Thank you.

In a one score game I have no problem with the defense contending the snap hoping for a bobble or fumble.  I understand that my opinion is not universal, including among coaches.

In this scenario, it's up to the O-line to protect their QB. 

Unless the hit on the QB is especially egregious or very late I am reluctant to throw a flag.

I had a subvaristy game end with a two score lead when the offense took a knee from shotgun.  A defensive end come around and leveled the running back who was standing there watch the QB kneel.  I threw a flag, stopped the clock, and asked the U to walk off 15 yards.  The coach didn't like it, the fans didn't like it, one of the other officials didn't like it.  I chopped and wound and the game ended without another snap. 

[lawdog]

Thank you.

In a one score game I have no problem with the defense contending the snap hoping for a bobble or fumble.  I understand that my opinion is not universal, including among coaches.

In this scenario, it's up to the O-line to protect their QB. 

But a garden variety late hit is still a late hit.  If the QB kneels and you charge into him when you could have not, 100% that's a foul.  And honestly, the only reason to do that is to injure him, so he should be hammered for that.  Probably ejected if it is a solid hit with no attempt to lay off.

[TampaSteve]

Thank you.

In a one score game I have no problem with the defense contending the snap hoping for a bobble or fumble.  I understand that my opinion is not universal, including among coaches.

In this scenario, it's up to the O-line to protect their QB. 

Unless the hit on the QB is especially egregious or very late I am reluctant to throw a flag.

I had a subvaristy game end with a two score lead when the offense took a knee from shotgun.  A defensive end come around and leveled the running back who was standing there watch the QB kneel.  I threw a flag, stopped the clock, and asked the U to walk off 15 yards.  The coach didn't like it, the fans didn't like it, one of the other officials didn't like it.  I chopped and wound and the game ended without another snap.

Hopefully the ECO was creative and had the clock running the whole time during penalty administration

[TampaSteve]

I'm all about preventing silliness, but this is one of those situations where you had a great game for 46:30; team A has 1/10 is up by 2 scores and B is out of timeouts; and someone from B decides to get their last lick in (probably a disciple of classless Greg Schiano) while A is being a class act and taking a knee and not running a sweep with their all-world RB.

We try to be preventative, but as much as you try there's always those players out there - which ultimately makes the officials look bad by trying to be preventative.

All this said, we opted to cover this topic in pre-game and except for the crew "pinching in" more than normal we're not inserting ourselves pre-snap with obvious victory formation plays.

If one or several get themselves ejected, so be it - let the State sort it out. But no one can point a finger at the officials for trying to prevent silliness when the rules do not support it in this case.