Author Topic: Can kick returner be contacted while attempting to recover a grounded kick?  (Read 1410 times)

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Offline Fatso

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Free Kick or Scrimmage Kick -- let's say kick bounced a couple times (beyond the neutral zone) and returner is tracking it, can K knock returner down or tackle him to prevent him from getting the ball?


Offline GoodScout

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While it wouldn't be KCI because the ball has hit the ground, based on what you've described I'd probably have a flag down for holding on K.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Rule 2-3-4c : "...To push, PULL' or ward off an opponent  when the ball is loose IF he may legally touch or possess the ball." This backs up GoodScout's post. R can take houlding penalty either as tack-on or previouse spot.

Offline ncwingman

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Rule 2-3-4c : "...To push, PULL' or ward off an opponent  when the ball is loose IF he may legally touch or possess the ball." This backs up GoodScout's post. R can take houlding penalty either as tack-on or previouse spot.

2-3-4c says that K is allowed to do it though.

This is definitely an "I'd have to see it" call though. On a free kick, if K knocks the receiver down while running towards the loose ball (grounded, having gone at least 10 yards), I'd say that's legal under 2-3-4c. If K tackles R while moving away from the ball so one of K's teammates can recover the kick... then I'd say that could be holding.

This is also me probably remembering a very old rule, and it may no longer apply, but is K legally touching the ball if such contact would be "first touching"? Meaning, on a scrimmage kick, if R hasn't touched the ball first, K would be on a tighter leash as to what would constitute holding when going after the loose grounded kick.

I only remember this much older rule from a NFL Films video from the 80's where they had an odd play and asked players/coaches what happened - and I think Don Shula (or Marty Schottenheimer?) was the only one to know what happened: 4th down with 2 seconds left in the half, K punts the ball away, R was going for the block and didn't put a returner back deep. Punt wasn't blocked, and K downs the ball at the R10 as time expired for the half. At the time, the half couldn't end on any "violation of the rules" to which first touching was considered a violation (albeit one without a yardage penalty) and the period was extended by an untimed down. This is obviously no longer the rule, but it is something that has stuck with me.

Offline Ralph Damren

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2-3-4c says that K is allowed to do it though.

This is definitely an "I'd have to see it" call though. On a free kick, if K knocks the receiver down while running towards the loose ball (grounded, having gone at least 10 yards), I'd say that's legal under 2-3-4c. If K tackles R while moving away from the ball so one of K's teammates can recover the kick... then I'd say that could be holding.

This is also me probably remembering a very old rule, and it may no longer apply, but is K legally touching the ball if such contact would be "first touching"? Meaning, on a scrimmage kick, if R hasn't touched the ball first, K would be on a tighter leash as to what would constitute holding when going after the loose grounded kick.

I only remember this much older rule from a NFL Films video from the 80's where they had an odd play and asked players/coaches what happened - and I think Don Shula (or Marty Schottenheimer?) was the only one to know what happened: 4th down with 2 seconds left in the half, K punts the ball away, R was going for the block and didn't put a returner back deep. Punt wasn't blocked, and K downs the ball at the R10 as time expired for the half. At the time, the half couldn't end on any "violation of the rules" to which first touching was considered a violation (albeit one without a yardage penalty) and the period was extended by an untimed down. This is obviously no longer the rule, but it is something that has stuck with me.
Good catch, NCwingman, while I was thinking scrimmage kicks; free kicks would be 'open season' for K if ball had traveled 10 yards or been touched by R.

                                                          pi1eOn

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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2-3-4c says that K is allowed to do it though.
..... but is K legally touching the ball if such contact would be "first touching"? Meaning, on a scrimmage kick, if R hasn't touched the ball first, K would be on a tighter leash as to what would constitute holding when going after the loose grounded kick.


So there we have it, another conundrum due to the poor wording of the NFHS rules.  IMHO first touching means that K in this specific situation for a scrimmage kick cannot legally touch the ball.   For a free kick he can legally touch/recover the ball but the contact against R must be, in our judgment, an attempt for him to recover the loose ball and not to prevent R from possessing the ball so a teammate can get to the ball first.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline bossman72

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Grabbing/pulling an opponent to get to the loose ball (to give yourself and advantage) is legal.  Tackling an opponent so he doesn't get to the ball (just taking him out of the play) is a foul for holding.

Offline fudilligas

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Rule 2-3-4c : "...To push, PULL' or ward off an opponent  when the ball is loose IF he may legally touch or possess the ball." This backs up GoodScout's post. R can take houlding penalty either as tack-on or previouse spot.

still trying to figure out how you can pull someone without holding them

Offline bama_stripes

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still trying to figure out how you can pull someone without holding them

In my part of the country, there’s a difference between a holding foul, and “grabbin’ ahold” of someone. cRaZy