Enforcement of fouls during a loose ball play

[SCHSref]

There are some that are enforced from the previous spot and there are some which aren't. Help me fill in any missing gaps

Previous Spot                     
-DPI
-OPI
-Holding (Off and Def)
-Illegal Sub
-RTP (incomplete pass), holder, snapper, kicker (including running into)
-Encorachment on FK

End of Run or Spot of Foul
-Illegal fwd pass (including IG)
-Illegal touching
-Illegal kicking
-RTP (completed pass)
-Any illegal tackling/contact on completed pass

Am I mising some obvious ones???

[ncwingman]

Two quick nitpicks

1) Encroachment on a free kick is a dead ball foul, no? Therefore, it's not a loose ball play.

2) Illegal tackling/contact on a completed pass, I assume means *after* the pass completion, in which case this was during a running play and not a loose ball play. If it occurred prior to the pass completion, then it's previous spot.

DPI on a completed pass is enforced from the previous spot, and not tacked on, for instance.

Edit - Yes, you mentioned DPI as previous spot, but that's not a carved out exception. If the contact was prior to the pass and therefore defensive holding, you still don't tack that on to the completed pass. If the receiver caught the ball and then was tackled by the face mask, it was during the running play after the loose ball play ended, and enforced from the end of the run.

[SCHSref]

Two quick nitpicks

1) Encroachment on a free kick is a dead ball foul, no? Therefore, it's not a loose ball play.

2) Illegal tackling/contact on a completed pass, I assume means *after* the pass completion, in which case this was during a running play and not a loose ball play. If it occurred prior to the pass completion, then it's previous spot.

DPI on a completed pass is enforced from the previous spot, and not tacked on, for instance.

Edit - Yes, you mentioned DPI as previous spot, but that's not a carved out exception. If the contact was prior to the pass and therefore defensive holding, you still don't tack that on to the completed pass. If the receiver caught the ball and then was tackled by the face mask, it was during the running play after the loose ball play ended, and enforced from the end of the run.

Yes, ecroachment on a FK...dead ball...I'll edit that. Thanks

Yes, when the person is a runner...the pass has been completed and they are tackled.

A pass play is a loose ball play. You could have a foul during a loose ball and it not be previous spot

[ncwingman]

A pass play is a loose ball play. You could have a foul during a loose ball and it not be previous spot

Just to be precise with language, a "loose ball play" is any action during the down while (and prior to) the ball becoming loose. Once a pass is caught, any action that occurs is no longer during the loose ball play (assuming the ball does not become loose again). A foul on (or by) the receiver after the ball has been caught is not during a loose ball play.

However, to your point the only fouls during loose ball plays that are not enforced from the previous spot are roughing the passer on a completed pass (at the dead ball spot, provided a list of things...), illegal kicks, bats and passes (at the spot of the illegal kick, bat or pass) and any foul by A that occurs in A's end zone that is enforced as a safety.

Of course, we could also derail this conversion by pointing out the last edit of Rule 10 removed any mention of a basic spot for a foul *beyond* the line of scrimmage during a loose ball play. We're just assuming they didn't do that and that rule is still present.

[Fatso]

Illegal Batting is spot foul.

Illegal Touching is Loss of Down but I didnt think it was a spot foul.

[bama_stripes]

From my Football Fundamentals (penalty enforcement section):

A loose ball play is only possible behind the LOS.

[NVFOA_Ump]

From my Football Fundamentals (penalty enforcement section):

A loose ball play is only possible behind the LOS.

Start with the definitions:  NFHS 2-33

[ilyazhito]

What happens on a fumble beyond the neutral zone? The run ends after the fumble, but what is the status of the ball after the fumble and until it is recovered by either team?

[Ralph Damren]

What happens on a fumble beyond the neutral zone? The run ends after the fumble, but what is the status of the ball after the fumble and until it is recovered by either team?

As 'Bama stated, a loose ball play can only occur behind the LOS. Everything else becomes running plays and ,if you have 'fumble happy' kids, you can have several running plays during a down. The "WHEN" factor determines which related end-of-run becomes the basic spot. Here's an example I had in a game sometime last century.....

SCENE :Kickoff from K's 40
I : R1 fields the kick at R's 5;
II: R2 punches K2 @ 50;
III: R1 fumbles @ R's 20;
IV: R3 scoops up fumble @ R's 25 and goes for 
V:  we conferenced and...

            YOU MAKE THE CALL 

(above acts are in order of occurance)





 

[ncwingman]

What happens on a fumble beyond the neutral zone? The run ends after the fumble, but what is the status of the ball after the fumble and until it is recovered by either team?

The run ends when the ball is fumbled. Another run can begin when the fumble is recovered. The basic spot for any foul that occurs while the ball is loose is the "previous spot" of possession (i.e., where, and why, you bean-bagged the fumble).

As 'Bama stated, a loose ball play can only occur behind the LOS. Everything else becomes running plays and ,if you have 'fumble happy' kids, you can have several running plays during a down. The "WHEN" factor determines which related end-of-run becomes the basic spot. Here's an example I had in a game sometime last century.....

SCENE :Kickoff from K's 40
I : R1 fields the kick at R's 5;
II: R2 punches K2 @ 50;
III: R1 fumbles @ R's 20;
IV: R3 scoops up fumble @ R's 25 and goes for 
V:  we conferenced and...

            YOU MAKE THE CALL 

(above acts are in order of occurance)

The live ball foul by R2 is enforced at the end of the related run (since the foul occurred beyond that point), where R1 fumbled at the R20. Half the distance back to the R10, first and 10 for R. R2 is ejected for the punch.

[Ralph Damren]

The run ends when the ball is fumbled. Another run can begin when the fumble is recovered. The basic spot for any foul that occurs while the ball is loose is the "previous spot" of possession (i.e., where, and why, you bean-bagged the fumble).

The live ball foul by R2 is enforced at the end of the related run (since the foul occurred beyond that point), where R1 fumbled at the R20. Half the distance back to the R10, first and 10 for R. R2 is ejected for the punch.

GOOD JOB...YA' NAILED IT 

3 time frames were involved: (1)  before kick fielded @ R's 5 (pre-tack-on)= previous spot, K rekicks from R's 45; (2)  after kick fielded but before fumble recovery =spot of fumble (related run) ; (3)    during TD run = spot of foul (50) , R's ball @ R's 35.

REMEMBER, GUYS THE 4 W'S : WHO, WHAT WHEN, WHERE 
(note; there can be a 5th W ...a DOG  in the last minute of a 50-0 game = WHY?

[sj]

One for defensive holding. If the defensive hold occurs during a running play that ends beyond the line of scrimmage you enforce it from the end of the run. Edit - But now I see you're only trying to refer to loose ball plays but nonetheless.

[ilyazhito]

The run ends when the ball is fumbled. Another run can begin when the fumble is recovered. The basic spot for any foul that occurs while the ball is loose is the "previous spot" of possession (i.e., where, and why, you bean-bagged the fumble).

The live ball foul by R2 is enforced at the end of the related run (since the foul occurred beyond that point), where R1 fumbled at the R20. Half the distance back to the R10, first and 10 for R. R2 is ejected for the punch.

That makes more sense. Previous spot , without any context, usually refers to the prior line of scrimmage, which was why I was scratching my head when I read that loose balls go back to the previous spot. If the line of scrimmage was the A-30 and the fumble happened at the 50, it is absurd to bring the ball all the way back to the 30 to mark a foul that happened while the ball was loose (unless the foul happened near the 30-yard line and was committed by the offense). 

[bama_stripes]

There can be a big difference between “a foul during a loose ball play” and “a foul while the ball is loose”.  It’s really hard to explain this difference to new officials.

I’ve always thought that the term “loose ball play” should be changed to avoid such confusion — perhaps to “non-running play”.  Anyone have any other suggestions?

[ncwingman]

(note; there can be a 5th W ...a DOG  in the last minute of a 50-0 game = WHY?

I had a game this year that was a huge blowout like this. Running clock, and the losing team was dragging their feet getting plays in an called. At one point, the visible play clock (which they would not turn off despite requests) was running to zero with the team still in the huddle.

Wouldn't you know it, but, I suddenly had to verify that we had the right down. Crazy coincidence... only piece of luck that team had the whole game.

There can be a big difference between “a foul during a loose ball play” and “a foul while the ball is loose”.  It’s really hard to explain this difference to new officials.

I’ve always thought that the term “loose ball play” should be changed to avoid such confusion — perhaps to “non-running play”.  Anyone have any other suggestions?

I figure this is a weird holdover from the rugby roots, especially league, where you have six tackles and phases, but it's a continuous action - so a "play" is part of the live ball action, and there can be many plays before the ball becomes dead.

In the rule book, I figure this is also one of those things that has become unnecessarily complicated due to a bunch of minor changes over the years. However, with the recent change to Rule 10 (the part they meant to put in), I think it can simplify it a little bit:

Prior to any change of possession, if a foul happens while the ball is loose (or prior to the ball being loose on a legal forward pass, legal kick or fumble) the basic spot is the previous spot of player possession (i.e., where player possession ended) - except that spot cannot be behind the line of scrimmage. (Sub-exception for spot fouls listed in 10-4-4).

[bossman72]

There can be a big difference between “a foul during a loose ball play” and “a foul while the ball is loose”.  It’s really hard to explain this difference to new officials.

I’ve always thought that the term “loose ball play” should be changed to avoid such confusion — perhaps to “non-running play”.  Anyone have any other suggestions?

NCAA has 3 types of plays:  Run, Pass, Kick.  Pass/Kick are treated the same (like a loose ball play).