Free Kick after a fair catch

[ElvisLives]

Hey! FED folks…
In your rules, when there is a Free Kick After a Fair Catch, what happens if there is a foul during the kick (such as clipping) and the kick fails to score? Where is that penalty enforced?

Elvis

[bossman72]

Hey! FED folks…
In your rules, when there is a Free Kick After a Fair Catch, what happens if there is a foul during the kick (such as clipping) and the kick fails to score? Where is that penalty enforced?

Elvis

What would you do on a kickoff?  Do it the same way.

[ElvisLives]

What would you do on a kickoff?  Do it the same way.

Well, not being a FED guy, I can’t say. Honestly, I’m just trying to get ahead of the NCAA for when we get the rule change to allow an uncontested field goal attempt after a fair catch. Not sure if it will be treated as a free kick, or a scrimmage kick, with respect to fouls, etc. I’m hearing scrimmage kick.

[bossman72]

Well, not being a FED guy, I can’t say. Honestly, I’m just trying to get ahead of the NCAA for when we get the rule change to allow an uncontested field goal attempt after a fair catch. Not sure if it will be treated as a free kick, or a scrimmage kick, with respect to fouls, etc. I’m hearing scrimmage kick.

I'm hearing that too, along with them being able to extend the period to do the free kick. 
I'm just bracing for the dumb mechanics they're going to make us do for this play instead of just taking the R and C and putting them under the upright and keeping everyone else in their normal free kick positions.  But that's too simple.

Interesting FED case play for this.  Let's say you choose not to do this and run a play. Then you have a foul that replays the down (say, DPI). Your option to do the free kick is restored since you are replaying the down, and all options that existed before the down are at your disposal.

[Legacy Zebra]

Shaw just posted the rule change draft to RQ. It will be treated like a scrimmage kick.

[ElvisLives]

Shaw just posted the rule change draft to RQ. It will be treated like a scrimmage kick.

Yep. Got it.

[Rob S]

I'm just bracing for the dumb mechanics they're going to make us do for this play instead of just taking the R and C and putting them under the upright and keeping everyone else in their normal free kick positions.  But that's too simple.

Last week, Shaw mentioned in a clinic that they were leaning towards keeping B&F on goal posts, H&L on pylons, S/C/B on restraining lines, and R giving the kicker the ball then hacking it in.

[ElvisLives]

Last week, Shaw mentioned in a clinic that they were leaning towards keeping B&F on goal posts, H&L on pylons, S/C/B on restraining lines, and R giving the kicker the ball then hacking it in.

Once per career, those 8 can handle it. 

[ElvisLives]

Last week, Shaw mentioned in a clinic that they were leaning towards keeping B&F on goal posts, H&L on pylons, S/C/B on restraining lines, and R giving the kicker the ball then hacking it in.

Any mention of clock and game timing? Start on the kick? When legally touched in the field of play?
Any word?

[Kalle]

Let's take the NCAA mechanics discussion to the NCAA forum.

[Ralph Damren]

The NFHS 'stuff' on free kicks on fair catch.......

* Clock, flags, etc treated the same as regular kickoffs other than 

* Officials line up as other free kicks (kickoffs) R & U are deepest (5 man) and for FG attempt under the pipes to make the call 

* Don't forget the set the stakes to establish the free kick NZ. 

ODDs of occurance are less than a one-legged man winning a butt-kicking contest, as the stars have to align.....

- Only viable late in the half/game as team is giving up the ball.

- Kicker needs to be able to reach the pipes

-3 points has to mean something 

PERSONAL NOTE : i'M 80 and have been a football official for 56 of them. I've seen Halley's Comet (once every 76 years) once but NEVER seen a free kick after a fair catch in any game I've worked  .

[ElvisLives]

The NFHS 'stuff' on free kicks on fair catch.......

* Clock, flags, etc treated the same as regular kickoffs other than 

* Officials line up as other free kicks (kickoffs) R & U are deepest (5 man) and for FG attempt under the pipes to make the call 

* Don't forget the set the stakes to establish the free kick NZ. 

ODDs of occurance are less than a one-legged man winning a butt-kicking contest, as the stars have to align.....

- Only viable late in the half/game as team is giving up the ball.

- Kicker needs to be able to reach the pipes

-3 points has to mean something 

PERSONAL NOTE : i'M 80 and have been a football official for 56 of them. I've seen Halley's Comet (once every 76 years) once but NEVER seen a free kick after a fair catch in any game I've worked  .

Ralph,
Thank you. That info answers my questions. Unfortunately, the NCAA appears to have decided on a hybrid Fair Catch Kick. Reportedly, the kick, itself, is made per kickoff rules, but, then, follows scrimmage kick rules. But, no mention of timing. So, I was wondering about the NFHS rule, which you answered. Thank you.

[Rob S]

Any mention of clock and game timing? Start on the kick? When legally touched in the field of play?
Any word?

Yeah, he said it would start on the kick.

[ElvisLives]

Yeah, he said it would start on the kick.

Thank you, Rob. That makes the most sense.

[ElvisLives]

Ralph (in particular),
I'm particularly interested in the Fair Catch Kick, but, I'm going to ask some related questions as we head to the Fair Catch Kick:

a) In NFHS, on any free kick, does the kicker have special protection, i.e., is Team B prohibited from blocking the kicker before he advances some distance, or the ball has touched the ground, or has been touched by any player?

b) In NFHS, on any free kick, are Team A players prohibited from blocking Team B players until they are eligible to touch the ball?

c) Does NFHS have an "Illegal Wedge Formation" foul on free kicks? (After the ball has been kicked, two or more Team B players aligned through their shoulders, and within two yards of each other, for the purpose of blocking for the ball carrier.)

d) In looking at some NFHS video examples of a Fair Catch Kick, the kicker makes the kick using a standard "kickoff" tee. Obviously a holder is not "required." If a kicker prefers to kick the ball off the ground, or off of a flat tee, is he allowed to have a holder control the ball on the ground/tee? As stupid as it may be, is he allowed to kick the stationary ball directly off the ground without a holder? (Yes, I am aware that a drop kick is allowed.)

If the answer to any of those questions is "Yes," then how does/do it/they relate to a Fair Catch Kick? Does/do it/they still apply?

You can probably tell that I am trying to know what y'all do, before I raise these issues with the NCAA folks. These issues are not addressed at all, in their new Fair Catch Kick rule. Yeah, I know. A once in a lifetime occurrence. But, if they're gonna have a rule, let's cover all of the real possibilities.
I wonder if it will be fair to say that:
- if the field goal attempt is successful, the down is treated as a kickoff, regarding action on the field before the ball is dead; or
- if the field goal attempt is unsuccessful, and played by Team B, the down is, fully, played per kickoff rules; or
- if the field goal attempt is unsuccessful and dead without being touched by Team B, action during the down is played per kickoff rules until the ball is dead, then "next play" scrimmage kick rules apply.

Any info you (or any NFHS folks) can give me would be appreciated.

Robert Cameron
Lubbock, Texas
(806) 773-2507
rckcameron@icloud.com

[ElvisLives]

Well, another issue.
If the kick fails to score and lands in the field of play, is the ball treated as a free kick (i.e., Team A is free to touch/recover the ball)? Or, is the ball treated as a scrimmage kick (Team A my not touch the ball before it is touched by Team B)?

Ya know, the more I think about this, a Fair Catch Kick should be nothing but a place kick attempt off the ground (or from a tee for NFHS and UIL) with, or without a holder, and all other players of both teams on their sidelines. If the kick scores: 3, points and a kickoff. If the kick fails: Team B gets the ball 1/10, at the B-20, or the previous spot, whichever is farther from B’s goal line. That’s it. No runback. No onside. They score a field goal, or give the ball to Team B.
Oh, and if they run a regular scrimmage down after the fair catch, there is no option for a Fair Catch Kick, should the down be repeated by penalty. You only get one chance to elect a fair catch kick.
Anybody in authority (NFL, NCAA, NFHS, UIL) listenin’ ?

[Steely Dan]

I'm not Ralph obviously, but wanted to take a crack at a few for discussion sake.


a) In NFHS, on any free kick, does the kicker have special protection, i.e., is Team B prohibited from blocking the kicker before he advances some distance, or the ball has touched the ground, or has been touched by any player?

Can't hit kicker until he is 5 yards past his free kick line, or ball has hit the ground or another player. (or an official)

b) In NFHS, on any free kick, are Team A players prohibited from blocking Team B players until they are eligible to touch the ball?

Correct.  Ball must travel 10 yds and touch the ground, or R touches/muffs the ball, or R initiates contact in the neutral zone.

c) Does NFHS have an "Illegal Wedge Formation" foul on free kicks? (After the ball has been kicked, two or more Team B players aligned through their shoulders, and within two yards of each other, for the purpose of blocking for the ball carrier.)

No wedge rule, but they can't interlock arms.

[ElvisLives]

Thank you, Dan. I am grateful.

[Ralph Damren]

Yo, Elvis & Dan...

While Dan covered the NFHS rules on free kicks and the same rules would apply if a FK was chosen after a FC, it appears that the NCAA version would be treated as a scrimmage kick where free kick rules would not apply. If one was free kicking for a FG, there souldn't be any concern about rules that apply to onside kicks. Where the NCAA treatment of a FC>FK is treated differently (scrimmage kick - free kick) You really need to wait until their mechanic is posted. The NFHS timing is the same as a free kick for other situations - clock wouldn't start until legally touched. Where the unlikely results of a fair catch occurring on a yard line, we recommend that the stakes are set to establish the 10 yard neutral zone. Our kicker  can use a  tee and have a holder ,if wished.

I viewed Halley's Comet, which shows up every 76 years. I've officiated football for 56 years and never seen afree kick after a fair catch, in person.

                                                                 

[Etref]

Elvis will have one the first game of the season!  lol

[ElvisLives]

Yo, Elvis & Dan...

While Dan covered the NFHS rules on free kicks and the same rules would apply if a FK was chosen after a FC, it appears that the NCAA version would be treated as a scrimmage kick where free kick rules would not apply. If one was free kicking for a FG, there souldn't be any concern about rules that apply to onside kicks. Where the NCAA treatment of a FC>FK is treated differently (scrimmage kick - free kick) You really need to wait until their mechanic is posted. The NFHS timing is the same as a free kick for other situations - clock wouldn't start until legally touched. Where the unlikely results of a fair catch occurring on a yard line, we recommend that the stakes are set to establish the 10 yard neutral zone. Our kicker  can use a  tee and have a holder ,if wished.

I viewed Halley's Comet, which shows up every 76 years. I've officiated football for 56 years and never seen afree kick after a fair catch, in person.

                                                                 

Ralph,
I, too, have seen Halley’s comet. 🙂

Looks like we’re gonna treat it like a free kick for formation. That’s easy enough. And the game clock is gonna start on the kick. Easy. Then we treat the rest of the down like a scrimmage kick, which is good, for the most part, because the illegal touching provisions with a scrimmage kick pretty well eliminate the practicality of a deliberate short kick. And the ‘Next Play’ provisions of a scrimmage kick discourage the kicking team from doing anything other than making a bona fide effort to make a field goal. With free kick rules, the kicker is protected from being blocked right after kicking it; not so with scrimmage kick rules. But the action on the field is no different than a free kick, and the kicker is at real risk without that protection.
In the event the kick is bad/short, and the receiving team can catch/recover it and advance, the kicking team will want to cover the kick. Under free kick rules, the receiving team can’t form a “wedge block.” Again, the action on the field is no different than a free kick. So, why should a wedge block be allowed (if the down is played as a scrimmage kick)?
Those issues can be fixed, if they just will.
That’s NCAA.

Let’s talk NFHS for one more issue. I have ‘heard’ that, in NFHS, if the team that makes a fair catch elects to simply put the ball in play by snap (instead of making a FCK) and does so, but there is a penalty that causes 1st down to be repeated, the team that made the fair catch can, sort of retroactively, elect to make a Fair Catch Kick. True? False? If true, is it only for an opponent’s foul? Or either team?

[VALJ]

Let’s talk NFHS for one more issue. I have ‘heard’ that, in NFHS, if the team that makes a fair catch elects to simply put the ball in play by snap (instead of making a FCK) and does so, but there is a penalty that causes 1st down to be repeated, the team that made the fair catch can, sort of retroactively, elect to make a Fair Catch Kick. True? False? If true, is it only for an opponent’s foul? Or either team?

Under Fed code, since the down is "replayed" after an accepted penalty, all of the rights remain on the replayed down. So yes, they can still choose to kick if the down is replayed due to an accepted foul committed by either team.

[ElvisLives]

Under Fed code, since the down is "replayed" after an accepted penalty, all of the rights remain on the replayed down. So yes, they can still choose to kick if the down is replayed due to an accepted foul committed by either team.

Thank you.