4th Down "Trick Play" - Scrimmage Kick Formation

[NVFOA_Ump]

Team A has a 4th down coming with the ball at the B5 yard line.  They come out of the huddle with 4 interior linemen (numbered 50-79) with the snapper wearing #9.  They are in a "standard" field goal kick (scrimmage kick) formation with "holder" at about 7 yards back with a knee down and the "kicker" behind him.  Before the snap, "holder" who is also the 2nd string QB, stands up, and the "kicker" moves further back so he's 10 or more yards behind the LOS.  After all players are set for 1 second, the ball is snapped to the now "up-back" who proceeds to throw for a TD to the right split end.  Team B coach complains that this is an illegal formation as no player, in position to receive the snap, has a knee down.  What say you?  Rules references please.

[ElvisLives]

Can’t speak to NFHS. Gonna throw this up on the NCAA board. We can compare.

[bama_stripes]

Legal. Rule 2-14-2-b.

“A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in position to receive the snap.”

[bossman72]

Legal. Rule 2-14-2-b.

“A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in position to receive the snap.”

That's the thing though, he's not in position to receive the snap. The "holder" at 7 yards is.

[ElvisLives]

That's the thing though, he's not in position to receive the snap. The "holder" at 7 yards is.

He is if he wants to punt or drop kick the ball - right? Can’t imagine anybody wanting to punt at B’s 5. A drop kick is highly unusual, but plausible.

[bossman72]

He is if he wants to punt or drop kick the ball - right? Can’t imagine anybody wanting to punt at B’s 5. A drop kick is highly unusual, but plausible.

Well, no, because you'd have to snap the ball through the "holder" or over his head to get to the guy 10 yards deep.  To me, this isn't in position to receive the snap.

[ElvisLives]

Well, no, because you'd have to snap the ball through the "holder" or over his head to get to the guy 10 yards deep.  To me, this isn't in position to receive the snap.

Yeah, if the potential holder stands up and takes a position in a direct line between the snapper and the potential kicker. The original post didn’t make that clear. I read it as the potential holder stood up, but was not in that direct line. I’ll leave it at that, since I’m not a NFHS guy.

[bama_stripes]

Yeah, if the potential holder stands up and takes a position in a direct line between the snapper and the potential kicker. The original post didn’t make that clear. I read it as the potential holder stood up, but was not in that direct line. I’ll leave it at that, since I’m not a NFHS guy.

That was the mental picture I had as well.  If the holder doesn’t offset, 

[NVFOA_Ump]

Well, no, because you'd have to snap the ball through the "holder" or over his head to get to the guy 10 yards deep.  To me, this isn't in position to receive the snap.

Simply not true.  "Holder" only needs to be a foot or 2 offset or can move immediately after the snap.  Plus who on the crew is going to flag this because the "holder" is in the way???

[bossman72]

Simply not true.  "Holder" only needs to be a foot or 2 offset or can move immediately after the snap.  Plus who on the crew is going to flag this because the "holder" is in the way???

After the snap is irrelevant.  In position to receive means the snap has a chance of going to you.
If the player at 7 yards is standing up and in a direct line between the snapper and the player 10 yards deep, then the player 10 yards deep is NOT in position to receive the snap.  The player at 7 yards is.
If the snap can't go directly to that guy 10 yards deep without going through the person 7 yards deep, he's not in position to receive the snap.

[NVFOA_Ump]

After the snap is irrelevant.  In position to receive means the snap has a chance of going to you.
If the player at 7 yards is standing up and in a direct line between the snapper and the player 10 yards deep, then the player 10 yards deep is NOT in position to receive the snap.  The player at 7 yards is.
If the snap can't go directly to that guy 10 yards deep without going through the person 7 yards deep, he's not in position to receive the snap.

Who is going to call this???  Think about that carefully as there is no one who can rule that the holder is in the direct line of the snap as just a foot or so offset he's good.  This play stretches the rules but is IMHO legal.

[bossman72]

Who is going to call this???  Think about that carefully as there is no one who can rule that the holder is in the direct line of the snap as just a foot or so offset he's good.  This play stretches the rules but is IMHO legal.

Literally any Referee with 20/80 vision or better can call that.  It's not difficult, especially if you're snapping from a hash.
I'm not sure where you're getting this "just a foot off and he's good".  It's entirely your judgment whether the holder is out of the way enough so that the deep guy can receive the snap.  NCAA defines it as the frame of the snapper, which makes sense as there's no question whether or not the closer back is in position to receive the snap.
Also this is a trick play, so I'm not cutting them a break on ambiguity here.

[ncwingman]

Literally any Referee with 20/80 vision or better can call that.

So, like half of us? 

A common punt formation has three "protectors" where the middle guy fills the gap as soon as the ball goes by. If we're suggesting this scenario isn't allowed, then that formation is illegal as well and that gets used all the time without confusion or complaint.