Helmet off by foul

[ElvisLives]

Actually had this happen.
Ball carrier A11 is running off-tackle to the left when an opponent grabs his facemask (big time, foul called), and pulls the helmet off, which causes A11 to fumble. The ball bounces hard left about 5 yards, with A11 in chase. The ball manages to bounce off another player back toward A11, who recovers while going to the ground. From fumble to recovery was approx 2-full seconds.
Hmm. What to do now? Do we consider A11’s action continued participation? Or does this qualify as “…the immediate action of which they are engaged”?

We went with FMM only, and allowed A11 to remain in the game.

What would you have done?

[dammitbobby]

I'd do exactly what you did. 2 seconds isn't a long time, and IMO it's not enough time for him to make a concerted effort to continue participating.

[bossman72]

I agree with that.

[Kalle]

Sounds like continuous action to me.

Compare this to what I had a few years ago. 1/10@A-20. Immediately after the snap CB B81 contacts WR A92 and grabs his facemask, violently pulling the helmet completely off. A92 shrugs the contact off and runs his route. B81 then proceeds to throw the helmet towards A92 (not hitting him). The deep pass from A12 towards A92 falls incomplete at A-45. I (FJ) had flags down for FM and UNS on B91 and continuing participation on A92. Penalties were offset and B91 was ejected. A92 was allowed to participate on the next down.

[dammitbobby]

Shouldn't the UNS have been live ball treated as dead ball, enforced after the offset of the two others?

[Legacy Zebra]

Not for the last 12 years or so. That is only for UNS fouls by non-players now.

[dammitbobby]

Thanks - I asked before my Red Bull this morning lol.

[FWREF]

OK, I'm sure I'm missing something but the ball would be dead as soon as the ball carrier's helmet came off. No play, no participation after the play

[ElvisLives]

OK, I'm sure I'm missing something but the ball would be dead as soon as the ball carrier's helmet came off. No play, no participation after the play

What ball carrier?

[TxBJ]

.

[Bulldog75]

In the first scenario A11, the ball carrier, loses his helmet and the ball.  If the ball carrier loses his helmet the ball becomes dead.  So I guess it depends on the sequence, whether he fumbles before or after he loses his helmet.  I think unless it was clearly before, I would have a dead ball.  I wouldn't want to reward the defense for ripping off the ball carrier's helmet by the facemask.

[sj]

As bulldog said, the timing is important. But assuming for the sake of argument that it's judged that the ball is still live, I'd say based on the description, that the immediate action in which A11 was engaged was that he was attempting to recover the fumble. So he can continue to do that without a foul.

[Kalle]

Ball becoming dead when the ball carrier loses his helmet is definitely a safety rule so do err on the side of ruling it dead when the ball carrier fumbles at the same time as the helmet comes off.

[Etref]

Seems similar to a loose ball with an IW.

[ElvisLives]

Seems similar to a loose ball with an IW.

In what respect? I don’t get that. The ball was loose from a fumble. There was no whistle, until the ball was recovered by a player with something other than hand/foot touching the ground. Ball dead at that point. No IW. There is the possibility the helmet was completely off the BC before the fumble, but, I don’t think it was. So, at worst, we might have needed to declare the ball dead when the helmet was completely off. But, I truly believe the ball had been fumbled BEFORE the helmet was completely off, so the ball remained alive. Then the issue became whether, or not, the fumbler who lost his helmet was still in the continuing action of what he had been doing, or not. That is debatable.
I have been trying to find that down in video, with no luck, yet. If I ever do, I will advise.

[sj]

Elvis - Here's a play that might be similar and you can let us know. For those who can access Refquest here's a link to a 2021 CFO video where Mr Shaw said that what occurred should be a continuing participation foul. The play starts at the 3:44 mark

https://plus.refquest.com/videos/LwcgswiEpfmLWW13S5vf/TkqCCeJZVcd63UAsxdSP

For anyone unable to access Refquest here's the same play on youtube. The link should take you right to the correct spot in the game

https://youtu.be/8Z0HHzZC6So?t=5318
 
During a punt, A85 is engaged, and his helmet comes off after which his butt goes to the ground. He then gets off the ground, turns and moves toward, and recovers a fumble. In the CFO video, when A85 went to the ground, Mr. Shaw said that that was "the end of his continuing action." So he supported the call for it to be a foul for continued participation that was ultimately made on the field. There were also two B holding fouls during the kick. Interesting 3-4 minutes where the play went to replay.....

[ElvisLives]

No, not really similar.

In our play, the BCs facemask was grasped and pulled/twisted, and the ball was fumbled, all while the BC was still on his feet. I can’t say conclusively that the ball was, or was not, in possession when the helmet came completely off the BC’s head. But, the timing was very concurrent, and, as I said, the BC stayed on his feet, and immediately moved toward the loose ball in an attempt to recover it. He was able to fall on the ball and recover it. I don’t see this as being any different than a blocker who continues to pursue and block an opponent for several yards after his helmet has come off.

It will take me a while, but, hopefully, I will have time to look for that play and see if I can find it. Part of the problem is that we had games on back-to-back days, and I, honestly, don’t remember in which game this occurred. But, when I can, I will take a look.