What down is it?

[Arbiter80]

Team A, 2nd down and 6. On the last play of the 3rd quarter, A38 gains 3 yards. After the play the down marker is flipped to 4th down. Following a brief pause to ensure no reason to defer ending the period, the referee holds the ball over his head to signify the end of the quarter. Both teams change ends of the field and the chains are reversed. Before the ball is snapped for the first play of the 4th quarter, Team A's coach notifies the game officials that he believes there is an error in the down.

[bossman72]

Can't we correct it since it's part of the same series?

I know you can't fix timing errors after the quarter ends, but downs I believe are bound by the series, not the quarter.

[bama_stripes]

Can't we correct it since it's part of the same series?

I know you can't fix timing errors after the quarter ends, but downs I believe are bound by the series, not the quarter.

Nope. Case Book 5.1.1.Sit B

I’d love to be able to correct this error, and during the excitement and stress of a game, I’d likely “forget” that it’s not allowed.

[refjeff]

Nope. Case Book 5.1.1.Sit B

I’d love to be able to correct this error, and during the excitement and stress of a game, I’d likely “forget” that it’s not allowed.

Agreed.  If a play has not been run I would correct it.

(And it's another reason I don't like it when the down box is flipped as soon as the play ends.) 

[Etref]

Is the down box official?

[lawdog]

Nope. Case Book 5.1.1.Sit B

I’d love to be able to correct this error, and during the excitement and stress of a game, I’d likely “forget” that it’s not allowed.

There is zero chance I'm following that stupidity.  The down marker guy doesn't change the down.  That's just an absolutely moronic ruling by the case book.  We haven't run a play yet.  FIX IT.

[Etref]

👍

[NVFOA_Ump]

Is the down box official?

No, the down box is an indication only and is not the final official determination of the down.  That belongs exclusively to the officiating crew.  Hopefully the crew, and specifically the wing official opposite the box notices the problem before the ball is snapped.

[sj]

There is zero chance I'm following that stupidity.  The down marker guy doesn't change the down.  That's just an absolutely moronic ruling by the case book.  We haven't run a play yet.  FIX IT.

I'd agree. But we're going to get in trouble when Coach B yells, "You can't change that to 3rd down. Case 5.1.1 Situation B says you can't!!!"

Well. Maybe not.

[Etref]

There is zero chance I'm following that stupidity.  The down marker guy doesn't change the down.  That's just an absolutely moronic ruling by the case book.  We haven't run a play yet.  FIX IT.

Which was my point. Letting some second string JV player who is on his phone while working the chains control the game is crazy!

Just my $.02 from an NCAA guy

[animalspooker]

But when Coach B say you can't, ask him if he has the rulebook in hand and can show you.  If he can....4th down!

[NVFOA_Ump]

This case book ruling in simple terms is both wrong and in conflict with the fact that the down marker is not in any game I have ever worked "official".  We're fixing the problem prior to the next snap and moving on. 

[SCline]

1-3-5a and 1-3-5b would disagree with you on that.

[NVFOA_Ump]

1-3-5a and 1-3-5b would disagree with you on that.

We have always been instructed that unless the box is being handled by an assigned member of the officiating crew that it can always be corrected up until a series has ended and the R has awarded a 1st down.  Because of problems in the past more and more schools here are asking the official assigner to assign a paid chain crew of qualified officials to be in uniform for their games. That does not eliminate the requirement that the on-field crew should be confirming the down number prior to every play without exception.

[bama_stripes]

1-3-5a and 1-3-5b would disagree with you on that.

I don’t think so.  The use of the word “official” in b is to differentiate it from an auxiliary down marker on the opposite side of the field.

I’ve worked games where there was no down box at all.  We just had a volunteer stand at the LOS and hold up fingers to indicate the down number.  In no way was that “official”.

[Ralph Damren]

Back in 2015 we added 5-1-1b, this promoted a laundry lists of "what ifs" . I always felt that this officiating screw-up could be easier handled by the white hat applying 1-1-6 (the God rule). The following year, a proposal was made to have simular guidelines if the chains weren't correctly placed. The members recalled the confusion caused by the 'wrong down rule and agreed the ref should iron out the problem.

[ncwingman]

I had this (sort of) happen last night in my JV game, and I thought about this thread as soon as it happened.

It's 1st and 10, A runs and loses two yards. After the play, the 3rd quarter expires. The box has moved to the correct position, but never flipped the down, so it still said 1 and not 2.

Technically, by rule, by the case play, since the R held the ball up to signify the end of the quarter with the box still saying "1", the next play must be 1st and 12, since it is too late to correct the down.

In reality, as we flipped the chains, I told the box guy "We're playing 2, not 1" and he flipped the box and nobody cared or probably even noticed. I don't know it might matter that the ball wasn't ready for play in the 4th quarter with the box being incorrect, everything was fixed during the 1 minute intermission.