UCF/BYU RTK

[bama_stripes]

UCF FG attempt in OT.

We never got a good TV replay look, but it appeared that two opposing linemen were engaged and rolled into the kicker.  What’s the NCAA rule/philosophy on this?

[oldtimerref]

Did not understand on blocked field goal the kicker had his helmet pulled off by BYU players yet kicking team was given a 10 second runoff. Thought this should have been a foul on BYU. What is the rule?

[ElvisLives]

UCF FG attempt in OT.

We never got a good TV replay look, but it appeared that two opposing linemen were engaged and rolled into the kicker.  What’s the NCAA rule/philosophy on this?

Don’t know anything about the specific action in question.

When a defensive player’s contact with the kicker is caused by an opponent’s block, there is no foul for RNK or RTK. This rule does leave room for some judgment, but this is a major safety foul, so, as always, when in question it is a foul.

[oldtimerref]

Based on ruling in BYU  game, a team B leading by 3 points with 8 seconds left in game could pull off helmet of team A runner and end the game with 10 second runoff. It does not make any sense.

[Kalle]

Based on ruling in BYU  game, a team B leading by 3 points with 8 seconds left in game could pull off helmet of team A runner and end the game with 10 second runoff. It does not make any sense.

If you can do that without committing a facemask foul, yes, that would be a smart play. Team A might want to consider getting better straps for their helmets.

[dammitbobby]

Did not understand on blocked field goal the kicker had his helmet pulled off by BYU players yet kicking team was given a 10 second runoff. Thought this should have been a foul on BYU. What is the rule?

They waived off the flag for FMM, but since the ball was kicked, the clock should have stopped, with no runoff.

[Eddieb85]

If you can do that without committing a facemask foul, yes, that would be a smart play. Team A might want to consider getting better straps for their helmets.

Worth noting, this was a kicker, so facemask fitting was probably low on the priority making this a very special case.

Still, ball should have been dead.

[ElvisLives]

OK, just looked at the UCF situation on YouTube. The kicker recovered the blocked kicked, and was attempting to advance, when he got engaged by a BYU defender, who tried to wrap his arms around the, now, ball carrier at the shoulder level. The BC twisted and dipped in trying to get out of the defender’s grasp, resulting in the defender’s arms sliding up onto the BC’s helmet. Without grasping the helmet in any way - only the friction of the defenders arms on the BC’s helmet - the BC helmet just slipped right off as he was going to the ground.
A flag was thrown by the H, more on the  ‘liklihood’ of a foul than actually seeing either a true facemask foul (grasping the mask or a helmet opening), or even continuous helmet contact. Don’t know if the RO got involved in that, but the H picked up her flag. But, the legal scrimmage kick down causes the game clock to stop. So, the helmet off should not have generated a 10SS.

[Kalle]

Weird that the entire crew fell for the old mostly-correct-but-in-this-case-not adage "it is not a kick until it crosses the NZ"...

[ElvisLives]

Weird that the entire crew fell for the old mostly-correct-but-in-this-case-not adage "it is not a kick until it crosses the NZ"...

And I would categorize this error as being ‘egregious,’ so the RO could have intervened. But, perhaps even the RO didn’t realize this was a “legal scrimmage kick down”.

[dammitbobby]

And I would categorize this error as being ‘egregious,’ so the RO could have intervened. But, perhaps even the RO didn’t realize this was a “legal scrimmage kick down”.

Unfortunately, they showed the conversation between the RO and the R, as the play went under review, and the R said to the RO that due to the helmet coming off, there would be a 10 sec runoff, since there were no timeouts left, and the RO concurred.

*edited, as I had the convo incorrectly characterized at first

https://x.com/awfulannouncing/status/2114137275877724213

[oldtimerref]

The entire crew looked confused and that is why I asked the question. I am still not sure if they ruled correctly. Should there have been a 10 second runoff or should clock start on the snap. What happened with live ball insportsmanlike foul on BYU? You guys would know better than this old ref.

[dammitbobby]

No runoff, start on the snap, since there was a legal kick. I haven't seen (I think) a clip of the UNS foul on BYU.

[Snapper]

1)  I’d be cautious attributing who first came up with the runoff decision based on a partial clip of the broadcast.  I have no idea where that came from, but I know that clip only shows part of the conversation.



2)  Here’s an interesting hypothetical that has been posed.  Take the kick out of the equation and just make this a normal scrimmage play.

Does stopping the clock to deal with the potential FMM foul, even if it’s subsequently picked up, enough to take off the runoff?

[dammitbobby]

Yes, B can elect to have a 10 second runoff. The clock stopped for multiple reasons - the flag, and also the helmet coming off. The flag was picked up, but that still leaves the fact that a player's helmet came off  during the play. So there is still a valid reason to stop the clock, outside of the flag.

[oldtimerref]

There was an unsportsmanlike on a live ball after the kick was blocked. 5 or 6 player on the ground after the block and a BYU used his hand to push the kicking team players helmet to the ground very hard. The CJ threw the flag immediately. After the R talked with replay, the 10 second runoff was announced and regulation game over. No mention was made of the unsportsmanlike foul. If you can see the entire play thru the end, what happened to the foul?

[bama_stripes]

Finally got a ground-level look at the RTK call.  This had a major effect on the outcome, since UCF scored the eventual game-winning TD.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/2572075216538819/?fs=e&fs=e

[Etref]

Does not appear the defender was blocked into the kicker but overpowered the offensive player.

[ElvisLives]

Yes, B can elect to have a 10 second runoff. The clock stopped for multiple reasons - the flag, and also the helmet coming off. The flag was picked up, but that still leaves the fact that a player's helmet came off  during the play. So there is still a valid reason to stop the clock, outside of the flag.

Check 3-3-10-b. “If the helmet coming off is the only reason for stopping the clock,…”. The clock was stopped at the end of the down, by rule, due to it having been a legal kick down. That removes the opportunity for a 10-second subtraction.

[dammitbobby]

Check 3-3-10-b. “If the helmet coming off is the only reason for stopping the clock,…”. The clock was stopped at the end of the down, by rule, due to it having been a legal kick down. That removes the opportunity for a 10-second subtraction.

I was responding to his hypothetical, in which there was no kick, but this was a normal scrimmage play.

[TxBJ]

Yes, B can elect to have a 10 second runoff. The clock stopped for multiple reasons - the flag, and also the helmet coming off. The flag was picked up, but that still leaves the fact that a player's helmet came off  during the play. So there is still a valid reason to stop the clock, outside of the flag.

I don't agree here. The clock was stopped to administer a penalty and for the helmet coming off. I don't think waiving off the flag would retroactively make the helmet coming off be the only reason the clock was stopped.

[dammitbobby]

I don't agree here. The clock was stopped to administer a penalty and for the helmet coming off. I don't think waiving off the flag would retroactively make the helmet coming off be the only reason the clock was stopped.

12-3-6-c:  Anytime after the Two-Minute Timeout in the 2nd or 4th quarters when a replay review results in the on-field ruling being overturned, and the correct ruling would not have stopped the game clock, then  he clock will be reset to the time the ball is declared dead by replay. The referee will subtract 10 seconds from the game clock and the game clock will start on the referee’s signal. Either team may use a team timeout to avoid the runoff.

As I interpret this, using targeting as the flag, and then replay overturns, there is a runoff - how is replay overturning a flag for targeting any different than the crew waiving off a flag? (assuming other conditions are exactly the same, runner was inbounds, not a kick, not 4th down, etc.)

[oldtimerref]

I still do not have an answer to unsportsmanlike foul, an official moved the ball from the 49 to the 34 then R ruled 4th quarter over with NO MENTION OF THE FOUL. Never seen anything like this with no explanation.

[ElvisLives]

I still do not have an answer to unsportsmanlike foul, an official moved the ball from the 49 to the 34 then R ruled 4th quarter over with NO MENTION OF THE FOUL. Never seen anything like this with no explanation.

What UNS foul?
I see nothing about a UNS foul. The H threw a flag for a possible facemask foul, but then ‘rescinded’ the flag. The RO or Command Center - don’t know which - then convinced the crew that the ‘helmet off’ required a 10SS, which is just simply wrong. Forget any foul. Forget any helmet off. The down was a scrimmage kick down. By rule, the game clock is stopped when the ball becomes dead on a scrimmage kick down, and starts on the snap. The 10SS on a ‘helmet off’ is only available if the ‘helmet off’ is the ONLY reason that the clock is stopped.

Oldtimer, you haven’t seen anything like this because the timing rules have become enormously complex in just the last 15 years, or so. Compound that with “command centers,” more situations in which ROs can get involved, TV covering nearly every NCAA game played, and “sports betting” in bed with the managing organizations, the game is very different than when I played HS (68-70), and started officiating in ‘72. Not all bad, but not all good, either.