Defensive Illegal Participation vs Illegal Substitution

[TXMike]

I understand the philosophy that if we had been able to do our count presnap and verify 12 before the snap, the team only gets hit for 5 versus the 15 it gets if it does not get verified until post snap.  But where do we draw the line?  If we are in doubt presnap and get verified after snap do we still go with the 5?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K19obHwJhgY
[yt=425,350]K19obHwJhgY[/yt]

[Wingman]

Not suppose to work they way this crew handled it.
Once the snap goes, if you haven't killed it by then, you have to go with illegal participation. Three guys counting team-B, someone should have validated the twelve long before this snap got off.

[JugglingReferee]

If the officials noticed 12 pre-snap, and signalled to each other as such, but had a difficult time getting their whistle in their mouths, could they have decided to wait the play's duration before ruling a dead ball foul?

In hockey, the play is dead when the Referee can no longer see the puck (when it is under the goalie's pads on a save).  If the puck subsequently comes out and into the net before the whistle, it is no goal.

Does the same philosophy occur here?  They confirmed > 11 on the field, but for some logistical reason, couldn't kill the play pre-snap.

[JugglingReferee]

Not suppose to work they way this crew handled it.
Once the snap goes, if you haven't killed it by then, you have to go with illegal participation. Three guys counting team-B, someone should have validated the twelve long before this snap got off.

Explain this one then:

Pre-snap, the 3 deep guys confirm 11.  But the defense thinks they have 10 on, so they send Johnson on prior to the snap.  So now the deep guys know there is 12.  However, Johnson comes on so close to before the snap, that they can't kill the play until after the snap.  Ruling?

[Kalle]

Well, the intent of the rule (and philosophy) is to give the teams the benefit of the doubt when they've forgotten to count. If a team miscounts and makes a substitution close to the snap making the count 12, that's their fault and I don't think it is the job of the officials to bail the offending team out there.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Don't understand why they decided to go with a DB 5-yard penalty here.  1st, as already noted, the play should not have gone off.  B did not late sub and had 12 on the field for an extended time.  2nd, they let the play get off without a B&T and then threw flag after snap and let play go to the end.  3rd, A got well over 15 yards as a result of the play (went from A-43 to B-33 / a 24 yard gain) making the penalty moot if they called it correctly (15-yard IP).  No question A would have declined the penalty and taken the result of the play.

In effect they penalized A on this play and not B?  The whole thing makes no sense?  Why would the crew get together and discuss this resulting in taking away the result of the play unless one of them had actually blown a pre-snap whistle?

[JugglingReferee]

Don't understand why they decided to go with a DB 5-yard penalty here.  1st, as already noted, the play should not have gone off.  B did not late sub and had 12 on the field for an extended time.  2nd, they let the play get off without a B&T and then threw flag after snap and let play go to the end.  3rd, A got well over 15 yards as a result of the play making the penalty moot if they called it correctly (15-yard IP).

In effect they penalized A on this play and not B?  The whole thing makes no sense?  Why would the crew get together and discuss this resulting in taking away the result of the play unless one of them had actually blown a pre-snap whistle?

If the rule says that the play must be blown dead, then unfortunately, the crew erred, but a 5-yard penalty is the only correct call.  If the rule says that the officials are empowered to kill the play, then you could let the play go.  If the penalty is to be enforced when the official discover the foul, then what they report (pre-snap or during the play) is on them.

[TXMike]

It may well have been a situation where 1 of the deep 3 flagged and tried to stop the snap but was unable to do so. That facility is some sort of an indoor facility and there were other times during the game where whistles could not be heard. 

But assuming that was not the case, I guess I am hearing that here is no way to go withthe 5 over the 15?

[NVFOA_Ump]

We always re-count when we have 12 for B which allows the couple of seconds that B has to get it right.  Then we would B&T.  I guess it's possible that before the re-count the play went off (hard to tell from the video what's happening in real time).  In any case, unless there was an unnoticed whistle before the snap, the enforcement here was in error.  12 players obviously participated and we don't have the option of deciding that since we did have a pre-snap 12 count, we'll call it a DB foul and erase the play.

Also, while I agree that it's not our job to get the substituting right, it is our job to make sure that we always have the correct count on the field.

[TxSkyBolt]

Approved Ruling 9-1-5 IV.

Team B has 12 men on the field of play when Team A snaps at its
40-yard line and punts the ball, which goes out of bounds at Team B’s
10-yard line. RULING: Illegal participation on Team B. Penalty—
15 yards from the previous spot.

[NVFOA_Ump]

It may well have been a situation where 1 of the deep 3 flagged and tried to stop the snap but was unable to do so. That facility is some sort of an indoor facility and there were other times during the game where whistles could not be heard. 

But assuming that was not the case, I guess I am hearing that here is no way to go withthe 5 over the 15?

Unless there was an "unheard" B&T I don't believe we have any option here.  If we let the snap go, we've got to have a 15 yard IP on this one and offer A the option of taking the result of the play.

[arrakis]

That facility is some sort of an indoor facility and there were other times during the game where whistles could not be heard. 

It's an oversized barn.  Of all the stadiums I've been to, it's at the top of the list of places I don't want to go to again.  But, not everybody can have a palace and Moscow did the best they could.

[jjseikel]

 If we let the snap go, we've got to have a 15 yard IP on this one and offer A the option of taking the result of the play.

Absolutely.

[Rob S]

It's an oversized barn.  Of all the stadiums I've been to, it's at the top of the list of places I don't want to go to again.  But, not everybody can have a palace and Moscow did the best they could.

Don't hate the Kibbie Dome   Yeah, I biased since I graduated from Idaho a couple years ago.  Its not all that great of a stadium, but it was nice when it was built decades ago.  Idaho wants to build a new stadium, but they need to build a new team first.  The dome is a good place for other student activities throughout the winter at least. 

And as far as not being able to hear a whistle... I doubt it.  Even at the 16,000 capacity, it doesn't get that loud on the field.

[Wingman]

I'd do what AR 9-1-5-VI says... let the play go and hit them with 15.

[AlUpstateNY]

Just a question, but, if you count 12 before the snap and the snap goes off before you can signal what you've seen, wouldn't it make sense to shut down the play and then verify after the snap?  If you've counted wrong, there's no foul-no harm, you pick up your flag, advise the referee and move on.

The fact that your reaction, although perfectly justified, may have been a tad slow shouldn't increase the penalty for something you observed before the snap.  If you weren't sure of your count, that may be a different story, but when you count 12, and the ball hasn't been snapped, that's a dead ball foul, whether you blow your whistle in time or not.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Although that does make some sense. AR 9-1-5-VIII says otherwise:

VIII. At the end of third down, Team B sends in its kick return team. The responsible officials count the Team B players and it appears that Team B has 12 players on the field of play. While the officials are attempting to recount the players, the ball is snapped. At the end of the down, the officials recount the Team B players and are positive that Team B had 12 players participate during the down.
RULING:
Illegal participation on Team B. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. (Note: If the officials are not positive that a team has violated Rule 3-5-2-c, they should not sound their whistles and penalize the team five yards for a substitution violation.)

Once the snap goes off without a whistle it's IP 15 yards.

[TXMike]

The fact that your reaction, although perfectly justified, may have been a tad slow shouldn't increase the penalty for something you observed before the snap.  If you weren't sure of your count, that may be a different story, but when you count 12, and the ball hasn't been snapped, that's a dead ball foul, whether you blow your whistle in time or not.

This is a good point  We do something similar on false starts at times.  We see something but do not react quickly, ball is snapped, we drop the flag and play happens.  We then realize we actually had a foul prior to the snap so in reality, the play "did not happen".   I know this is contrary to the AR's but it does make some common sense.

[Kalle]

IMO if you've counted, and re-counted, and verified that you have 12, and the snap happens when you're reaching for your whistle, then the foul is dead-ball and you kill the play. I think in this case the foul actually "happens" when at least two officials have made the decision that yes, there are 12 players on the field. The time of the whistle is immaterial.

[Dommer1]

I'm ok with that, but that's different from where you let the play go on for a 15 yard gain without attempting to kill it. If you decide to kill it at or just after the snap, you'd be on that funny whistle like crazy until everyone stopped. That did not happen here, this should have been illegal participation. Perhaps NVFOA_Ump said it best; the way this was handled the non-fouling team got the short end of the stick - that ain't right.

[TXMike]

There are conferences which have instructed guys to give Team B up till the snap to get the extras off. If they do not then they blow and throw at the snap.  And as I said, inthis facility they may have done that but play continued

[zebra99]

There are conferences which have instructed guys to give Team B up till the snap to get the extras off. If they do not then they blow and throw at the snap.  And as I said, inthis facility they may have done that but play continued

Agree - I think we need to let B correct the 12 players up to the snap.  I realize a strict interpretation of the "departing" player rule would mean a foul (5 yarder) after 3 seconds but practically speaking once you've counted 12, recounted and verified with your partners, it's pretty close to the snap - I guess if you get all this done early, and no player is looking confused or starting to make his way to the sideline and B's coaches aren't shouting at someone to leave and more than 3 seconds elapse, you could kill it then...but that's a lot of stuff to happen. A flag at the snap seems a better way to go, IMO.

[Blue]

I've never worked in this stadium so I'm a little out of school about the acoustics, but in the video, the crowd doesn't sound overly loud and the whistle is plainly heard when it is blown.  So, I will go out on a limb and say the play was not killed during the down.

When you count 12 players (on either team), give them time (3 seconds) to recognize the error and get the 12th man out.  The obvious exception would be Team A breaking the huddle with 12, but who huddles anymore!?  After you have given them time to start getting the 12th player off of the field, kill the play and enforce an ILS.  Even if you realize the team has 12 and it is just as or just after the ball is snapped, kill the play and go ILS.  But, if you let the play continue to the end, you have no choice but to go ILP.

I wonder what this crew would have done if Team A had scored a TD!

[KB]

There was no reason to not go with illegal participation. A had gained more than 15 yards anyway and would have declined the penalty.

[RTBackJudge]

I'm re-opening this thread after 2 years as we've had some discussion about a variation on the defensive substitution situation in our area. While we are clear that when the defensive has more than 11 in position while the snap is imminent, we’ll kill the play before the snap, there is a difference of opinion on how to handle things when the 12th player is beat-footing to the sideline. I am of the opinion that only the deep guy on the sideline the player is headed to should have a flag if the player doesn’t make it off before the snap and the penalty is treated as a substitution foul at the snap. I see no reason for the other two deep guys to echo that flag. What say the community?