Author Topic: Horse Collar Tackle...  (Read 17203 times)

Offline wlemonnier

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Horse Collar Tackle...
« on: February 10, 2010, 08:36:07 PM »
Curious... while watching a DVD of a high school football game, I saw the Umpire throw a flag for a horse collar tackle on a run up the middle right at the line of scrimmage.  No question it was a horse collar but not knowing the Federation rule, I wondered if Federation didn't have the exception on horse collar fouls between the tackles like NCAA.
Bill LeMonnier

Offline jg-me

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 08:59:57 PM »
There are no exceptions based on the field location of the horse collar tackle in NF.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 09:03:32 PM »
Curious... while watching a DVD of a high school football game, I saw the Umpire throw a flag for a horse collar tackle on a run up the middle right at the line of scrimmage.  No question it was a horse collar but not knowing the Federation rule, I wondered if Federation didn't have the exception on horse collar fouls between the tackles like NCAA.

No.  In FED, rule is the same anywhere on the playing field.

But don't go by what you saw in FED games this past year.  It may have been one of the most missed calls all year.  We were even called for a HC tackle (in a playoff game) on a runner that wasn't tackled.  Explanation: "Well, your player TRIED to horse collar him."  I wanted to suggest that the official TRY to read the rule.

But being a good coach, I shut up and just shook my head.

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 09:58:32 PM »
jg-me...
Thanks for the clarification on NF ruling on the horse collar tackle... no exceptions with field location.  I've got about 6 HC video clips that I am putting into a training DVD and for the most part they were all called correctly.  This one caught my attention and now I can use it as a positive example of a well officiated play.

Atlanta Blue...
As for the explanation that "He tried to HC the runner"... obviously a poor choice in words.  I'm sure the official read the rule.  Unfortunately it takes some repetitions of anything before we master something.  Some learn faster than others.  HC, helmet hits, etc. are calls we don't get to see in practice and experience.  I'm glad as a coach you took the high road and passed on the "come back" remark.  Being a class act is something we can all learn from.
Bill LeMonnier

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 10:26:16 PM »
Rumor has it there will be some adjustments to the Fed HC rule this spring.  There were disagreements about out of bounds and scoring plays where the ball was technically dead and would have to be a PF instead of an HC.  Also problematic was if there is an assist on the tackle from a teammate, its not a HC.


Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 06:50:58 AM »
Rumor has it there will be some adjustments to the Fed HC rule this spring.  There were disagreements about out of bounds and scoring plays where the ball was technically dead and would have to be a PF instead of an HC.  Also problematic was if there is an assist on the tackle from a teammate, its not a HC.



There was also a problem if the player fumbled the ball as a result of the HC, as he was no longer a runner.


Quote
Atlanta Blue...
As for the explanation that "He tried to HC the runner"... obviously a poor choice in words.  I'm sure the official read the rule.  Unfortunately it takes some repetitions of anything before we master something.

Bill:

Oh, I'm sure he read it, this was an official chosen to work the second round of the playoffs.  But despite reading it, either he didn't understand it or he reacted instead of thinking through or watching the whole play.  That was my point, it was one of the most misunderstood and misapplied FED rules this past season.

And we had it go the other way, too.  We worked with our players in the pre-season to teach them to stay off the collar, but despite our efforts, sometimes a kid grabs whatever he can as that runner goes by.  It's certainly not an intent to hurt the runner at all, it's in  desparation to get him tackled.  First game of the year, my mike LB breaks through the line and grabs a tailback by the collar that is moving laterally in the backfield, pulling him to the ground.  My LB jumps up grabbing his helmet KNOWING he has just done something wrong.  No flag.

I asked him about it afterward:  "Coach, as soon as a I grabbed the runner, I KNEW I was going to get flagged.  That's EXACTLY what you told us not to do, and I didn't mean it, I was just reaching to grab whatever I could, but it sure was a horse collar."

I think the definition needs refinement (which I hear we will see next week when the rule changes are published), and I think it's a foul on which HS officials need a lot more work.  It was missed both ways a good bit this season.  I'm glad you are making it part of your training, and hope it's a MAJOR point of discussion.  I think, being a new rule, it was probably one of the most misunderstood and misapplied rules all season.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 10:42:19 AM »
Quote
There was also a problem if the player fumbled the ball as a result of the HC, as he was no longer a runner.

Yeah, forgot that one.

Our supervisor was telling me during the season that the rule would probably get tweaked come spring.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 03:24:54 PM »
I agree with everything AB said.  (As much as it pains me to agree 100% with a coach...  LOL)

We all know that there are some rules that need a few years to get "fine tuned" (to put it mildly) after they're rolled out by the NFHS, and I really think that the HC qualifies.  I suspect we'll see some tweaking for the next two or three years.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 08:11:44 PM »
I agree with everything AB said.  (As much as it pains me to agree 100% with a coach...  LOL)


Don't you just HATE when that happens?   ;D

Offline VALJ

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 10:32:43 AM »
I really do.  I'm not sure you count as 100% coach, though, since you've seen the light for softball (or baseball, I don't remember which)... ;)

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 11:12:05 AM »
I really do.  I'm not sure you count as 100% coach, though, since you've seen the light for softball (or baseball, I don't remember which)... ;)

Baseball (although I have done a little softball here and there).  This will be my 41st year (I started when I was 12 - literally).

Offline Welpe

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 11:18:25 AM »
I really do.  I'm not sure you count as 100% coach, though, since you've seen the light for softball (or baseball, I don't remember which)... ;)

He's really an official in coach's clothes.   ;D

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 08:48:14 AM »
Why is there an exception of a HC between the tackles in NCAA - is there a lesser chance of injury there ?
For every coach that thinks we got it wrong there's another that thinks we got it right.

LarryW60

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 10:31:58 AM »
Still need some HCT education at the Fed level... for the coaches.  Varsity game Saturday night and a player for the team on my sideline chases down the runner and performs the equivalent of a clothesline by grabbing the back of the shoulderpad collar and yanking the runner off his feet.  The kid's feet were higher than his head from the sudden stop. Both covering officials (BJ and LJ) flagged the defender for a HCT.

When the defender gets back to the sideline, an assistant coach puts his arm around the player's shoulders and tells him "don't worry about it, I know you didn't do anything wrong".  I had to say, "Coach, that was a textbook HCT and is a personal foul so he DID do something wrong."  The coach gets a puzzled look on his face and asks, "He can't grab the collar?"  :!#
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 02:15:51 PM by Fadamor »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2010, 10:52:51 AM »
Still need some HCT education at the Fed level... for the coaches.  

Not just coaches, officials too.  Reasons I have heard for it not being called:

Coach, he pulled him down to the side, not backward.

Coach, he only grabbed the jersey, not the shoulder pads.

And this year:  Coach, he didn't pull him down in bounds.


I agree, MANY coaches don't know the rule.  But there are more than a few officials that don't know it either.

LarryW60

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 12:53:10 PM »

Coach, he only grabbed the jersey, not the shoulder pads.

I obviously don't know the specifics of the case you're stating, but I've had this exact explanation for a coach who wanted an HCT call last year.  The thing is, the defender had grabbed ONLY the jersey and not the collar of the jersey but the resulting tackle made it look like an HCT.  The defender grabbed a fist-full of jersey at the top of the runner's number and pulled him down.  Did it mean the same injuries to the runner's knees could have happened?  Yes.  Was it an HCT?  No.

EDIT: OK, not the EXACT same explanation.  I said something more along the lines of, "He grabbed the jersey, not the collar."
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 01:00:12 PM by Fadamor »

Offline biltheref

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 08:49:03 PM »
So, can you have a horse collar tackle without the hand being inside the jersey collar?  Put another way, Can you grab the inside of the shoulder pads through the shirt?

I think it is possible to grab the shoulder pad collar through a loose fitting shirt.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2010, 12:47:10 AM »
It's not a horse collar tackle with (a) the horse collar, and (b) the tackle.  If you're judging that - even though he didn't have the collar of the jersey, he had the collar of the pads - hit it.

One of my favorite "mouth of coaches" came the first year the HCT rule came into place.  B picked off a pass on the last play of the first half, and as he was returning it one of the A players grabbed him by the collar, but the B player brushed him off and kept going.  He didn't make it to the end zone, and the B coach (on my side, natch) went nuts for a horse collar foul.  I let him rant for a few seconds and said, "Coach, you're absolutely right that your player was grabbed by the collar.  But you can't have a foul for a horse collar tackle without the tackle itself."

He thought about it for a second, nodded, said "OK", and wen to join his team.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2010, 06:10:52 AM »
But you can't have a foul for a horse collar tackle without the tackle itself.

Wish you had told that to the HL that called it against us in a playoff game last year.  Our player definitely grabbed the runner by the collar and pulled him out of bounds, never to the ground.  Flag is dropped.  Explanation: "Coach, he tried to horse collar him."

That was the last playoff game that crew worked last year.

LarryW60

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2010, 10:29:43 AM »
So, can you have a horse collar tackle without the hand being inside the jersey collar?  Put another way, Can you grab the inside of the shoulder pads through the shirt?

I think it is possible to grab the shoulder pad collar through a loose fitting shirt.
Anything is possible, so yes you could have an HCT in that situation.  If the collar of the jersey OR shoulderpads are grabbed from the back or sides AND the resulting tackle is to the back or sides, then an HCT has occurred.  There's no requirement that the jersey collar must be grabbed in addition to the shoulderpads collar.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2010, 01:44:44 PM »
Wish you had told that to the HL that called it against us in a playoff game last year.  Our player definitely grabbed the runner by the collar and pulled him out of bounds, never to the ground.  Flag is dropped.  Explanation: "Coach, he tried to horse collar him."

That was the last playoff game that crew worked last year.

Tough break, AB.  Didn't indirectly cost you the game, I hope...

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM »
Tough break, AB.  Didn't indirectly cost you the game, I hope...

No penalty EVER directly cost us a game.  It may have contributed, but if we put ourselves in a position that it affected the outcome, they we did more than the officials did to cost us the game.

Don't get me wrong, bad calls have HELPED us lose games, and bad calls have helped us win some, but they were never the DIRECT cause in either case.

Offline James

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 03:32:26 AM »
 Did it mean the same injuries to the runner's knees could have happened?  Yes.  Was it an HCT?  No.

Intresting that you talk about knee injury for HCT as the motivation for implementation.
Our trainer (med school student) focused on the whiplash effect on neck and head as the reason for the rule (and also the difference to NCAA rules about the tackle box, where the runner is primed for contact and should have his neck muscles tensed - where in open field the runner would typically have less 'expectation' of a hit/pull from behind).

LarryW60

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2010, 07:21:21 AM »
The reason the HCT foul was implemented in the first place was because of a pro player (Roy WIlliams of the Cowboys) who loved to tackle that way.  After an unusual number of knee and ankle injuries to runners when tackled like that, they took a look at the mechanical forces involved and realized the risk to the lower body was extreme.  See the following Flash presentation:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2005/horse_collar_tackle/horsetest.swf

KFox1979

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Re: Horse Collar Tackle...
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2010, 05:17:42 PM »
The reason the HCT foul was implemented in the first place was because of a pro player (Roy WIlliams of the Cowboys) who loved to tackle that way.  After an unusual number of knee and ankle injuries to runners when tackled like that, they took a look at the mechanical forces involved and realized the risk to the lower body was extreme.  See the following Flash presentation:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spe/2005/horse_collar_tackle/horsetest.swf


Nice presentation, but shows that Bill Parcell's has no clue about the difference between objective and subjective.