Author Topic: Video: Be Ready for Anything!  (Read 5917 times)

FredFan7

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Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« on: August 30, 2010, 09:11:54 AM »
Wow.

[yt=425,350]azXcaxjFgF8[/yt]
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 03:14:18 PM by Grant - AR »

LarryW60

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 11:16:35 AM »
I saw commentary somewhere that this play has supplanted the play from last year at the most bonehead play ever (where R caught a short FG attempt at the end of the game then spiked it in the field of play - allowing K to score a TD).

Offline Curious

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 01:00:03 PM »
We had quite a crew discussion about this play.  In my opinion, the runner's forward progress was stopped well before he ever flipped the ball over his head.

Any comments/thoughts to the contrary?

Offline TXMike

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 02:38:49 PM »

LarryW60

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 02:43:12 PM »
It would depend on how much control that defender had of the runner.  I didn't see anything in the video that showed the defender had stopped the runner's forward progress.  BUT...

There has been discussion elsewhere here about this play and the question raised there was whether forward progress could even be CALLED since the runner never ran towards the defender's goal while in possession of the ball.  In other words, at no point did the runner ever ATTEMPT forward progress so how could you grant it?

Offline TXMike

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 02:51:07 PM »
There has been discussion elsewhere here about this play and the question raised there was whether forward progress could even be CALLED since the runner never ran towards the defender's goal while in possession of the ball.  In other words, at no point did the runner ever ATTEMPT forward progress so how could you grant it?
I have seen that and wonder where that theory came from?  A receiver that is hit as he lands wirth the ball and is knocked backwards to the ground is given the forward progress and he never attempted to go forward.  A receiver who is running a reverse and is circling wide to possibly get around the opposition but never gets going forward before he is hit and knocked down is given forward progress.  I think some guys are just saying the fact the runner did not go to the ground and instead tried to keep from going down by moving his feet and staying upright takes away his right to forward progress.  I don't see it.

LarryW60

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 03:16:50 PM »
Ahh, but in all your examples, the player was hit and tackled while in possession of the ball and actively attempting forward progress.  This particular runner never tried to gain any yards and was never tackled until after he had done that backwards pass.  Up until then the defender was pushing down on the runners shoulderpads for the previous 20 yards or so.  And how about this, The runner's progress was never stopped from the direction he chose to run in.  The defenders didn't make him run that way, he picked the direction after recovering the ball.  Was it a poor choice? Sure.  But there was no tackle and no safety issue (like we worry about with REAL forward progress calls) so I would have no whistle until the ball is dead by any rule that applied in this case.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 03:49:54 PM »
Ahh, but in all your examples, the player was hit and tackled while in possession of the ball and actively attempting forward progress.  This particular runner never tried to gain any yards and was never tackled until after he had done that backwards pass.  Up until then the defender was pushing down on the runners shoulderpads for the previous 20 yards or so.  And how about this, The runner's progress was never stopped from the direction he chose to run in.  The defenders didn't make him run that way, he picked the direction after recovering the ball.  Was it a poor choice? Sure.  But there was no tackle and no safety issue (like we worry about with REAL forward progress calls) so I would have no whistle until the ball is dead by any rule that applied in this case.

I'd judge on force/vector. Did the runner attempt to mitigate the force of the defender, by opposing that force? If so, now the runner is being overpowered, and gains forward progress. He doesn't have to MOVE forward, simply apply a forward force. I see no evidence of that force, ergo, he doesn't get forward progress.

I've got a TD, and a bit of a mechanics question for the out-of-position and immobile crew.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 04:55:45 PM »
A receiver runs a come back route and is running back towards his line of scrimmage.  Before he can stop and go back the other way he is hit be a defender who starts driving him even more towards his line of scrimmage and the defender is joined by a teammate as they continue driving him back to the line of scrimmage.  The receiver never loses his feet so  you are going to let the play continue until he does?  ?  ?   This theory some are espouting demonstrates someone who is choosing to be literalistic and NOT using common sense.   

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 09:12:34 AM »
 This theory some are espouting demonstrates someone who is choosing to be literalistic and NOT using common sense.   

My common sense tells me not to bail out a player who commits a stupid act.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 09:15:19 AM »
Common sense SHOULD tell you NOT to make a mockery of the game

Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 06:56:24 PM »
Common sense is a funny thing.  It frequently turns out to be neither as common nor as sensible as we'd like to think it is.

LarryW60

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 07:03:52 PM »
TXMike, So you're saying we should have flagged the runner for making a mockery of the game?  For me, blowing a whistle simply because a runner was running the wrong way would "make a mockery of the game."  You're not out there to help out a player who makes a poor decision.  If you do, then you've directly affect the game in a manner outside your responsibility.  YOU would have affected the final score of the game based on your personal feelings.  That's never a good thing.

Offline Curious

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 08:51:23 PM »
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=6926.0

Seems you and I are in the minority

Being in the minority doesn't make us wrong.  If this (three/four guys preventing the runner from moving forward) is NOT forward progress, I don't know what is.

Offline Jason Kramer

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2010, 09:51:42 PM »
Being in the minority doesn't make us wrong.  If this (three/four guys preventing the runner from moving forward) is NOT forward progress, I don't know what is.

Agreed.

Offline James

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 04:49:57 AM »
I understand that the minority are saying. But I need to ask where the forward progress was stopped? When he got the ball and started running backwards, or when the defender touched him?

To extrapolate to similar example. QB in the pocket and sees a rush. He starts dancing around and backing up to avoid the defenders, but ultimately is sacked for a 12 yard loss. Do we spot it where he started backwards, or was brought down.

If your forward spot is the contact from the defender, I can at least see the argument, since the example above with someone on the QB with the QB trying to dodge and run (even if with only minor contact) might be enough to say that the forward progress was stopped at a particular spot.

Offline srhendon

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 09:09:08 AM »
If you are in the minority you can still be right, but in this case I don't think so the runner never tried to move in any direction but his own goal. I t didn't look like the defenders were driving him back just trying to catch him and get a good enough grrip to pull him down.

Offline Jason Kramer

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Re: Video: Be Ready for Anything!
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 01:47:11 PM »
I understand that the minority are saying. But I need to ask where the forward progress was stopped? When he got the ball and started running backwards, or when the defender touched him?

To extrapolate to similar example. QB in the pocket and sees a rush. He starts dancing around and backing up to avoid the defenders, but ultimately is sacked for a 12 yard loss. Do we spot it where he started backwards, or was brought down.

If your forward spot is the contact from the defender, I can at least see the argument, since the example above with someone on the QB with the QB trying to dodge and run (even if with only minor contact) might be enough to say that the forward progress was stopped at a particular spot.


I just watched a Bill Lemmonierre mechanics DVD that went over a few plays dealing with this exact topic. His point was that on sacks that the referee or a wing has to make sure to get an accurate spot when the QB is sacked. In all examples, that spot was where the defender gained control of the QB. But in all examples, the QB was trying to evade the defender by going sideways and/or backwards. I believe the comment from Lemmonierre was to not cheat the offense out of yards gained.

If you think this RB in the video has not had his forward progress stopped, then you must also be ruling a QB's forward progress isn't stopped until he is taken down, which you're probably not doing.

Just because a player is running toward his own goal line doesn't mean his forward progress can't be stopped.