Can a forward pass become a backward pass ?

[Aussie-Zebra]

This is a quiz question from Referee Magazine

1. Third and five on team A’s 20 yardline. A1 drops back to pass. From his 10 yardline and into a stiff wind, A1 throws the pass forward but the wind blows back the ball to team A’s five yardline, where it hits the ground. B2 falls on the loose ball.
    a. The pass is forward.
    b. The pass is backward.
    c. The ball is dead when it hits the ground; it’s fourth down for team A.
    d. The ball remains live when it hits the ground; it’s first down for team B.

Answer 1 —  NCAA – b, d (2-19-2a)

I have to disagree with the answer. It cites 2-19-2a which states

Forward and Backward Pass

ARTICLE 2.
a. forward pass is determined by the point where the ball
first strikes the ground, a player, an official or anything beyond the spot
of the pass. All other passes are backward passes. When in question, it is
a forward pass rather than a backward pass when thrown in or behind the
neutral zone.
b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward
the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm
starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball
after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a
forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a
player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).
c. When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled during an attempted
forward pass.

Doesn't the forward movement of the arm automatically determine forward pass. Can a forward pass become a backward pass ?

[Hawkeye]

2-19-2-b Only comes into play if the passer is contacted after his arm starts forward, if that is the case the pass would be rule forward no matter where it went.

In the Play situation, since the passer is not contacted, 2-19-2-a is the governing rule and whether the pass is ruled forward or backward is determined by where it first touches something.

[Aussie-Zebra]

I understand what your saying however the second part of 2b refers to contact but the 1st part ....

b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward
the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm
starts the forward pass.

isn't that saying that it is a forward pass ?

The reason I ask is I am going to have to justify the correct answer.

[Amir]

My interpretation is that it starts as a forward pass, but ends up becoming a backward pass. I guess it's like a punt that's blocked at the line of scrimmage and ends up becoming a run / pass.

[JasonTX]

The same can be said for what is intended to be a backward pass.  The passer may toss the ball backwards from the 50 yard line, but a stiff wind blows the ball to the B-45.  By rule, that is a forward pass.  All the matters is the relationship between the spot of the pass to where it first touches something.  All you have to do is "connect the dots" and if that line is forward, then it will be a forward pass.  As already stated, if forward movement of the hand begins and then the player is contacted it will make no difference where the ball goes, it will be ruled as forward.

[ABoselli]

A more likely scenario to illustrate that might be a QB who is running a down the line option may turn upfield and while running full speed, tosses the ball backward at the B45 but the ball is caught by the trailing back at the 42. He tossed it backward but that doesn't matter - it was touched beyond the point of the throw, so it's forward.

Just pulling a portion of letter b without regard to the rest of the sentence neglects the whole reason for that portion of the rule, which is to give the ruling on a ball that may go backward (or anywhere) after the passer has been hit while his arm was going forward so where it lands after that is of no consequence - it will always be a forward pass and if it hits the ground, it's dead.

[Andrew McCarthy]

A more likely scenario to illustrate that might be a QB who is running a down the line option may turn upfield and while running full speed, tosses the ball backward at the B45 but the ball is caught by the trailing back at the 42. He tossed it backward but that doesn't matter - it was touched beyond the point of the throw, so it's forward.

You flagging that?

[With_Two_Flakes]

2-19-2-b is meant to be read and understood in its entirety, ie it is talking about the case of a passer being contacted during the act of attempting to make a forward pass.

Any other cases are covered by 2-19-2-a and you have to determine forward / backward by the yard lines.

[ABoselli]

You flagging that?

One that egregious?-I'd expect it to be flagged by the wing. One yard-ish difference - no.

[NVFOA_Ump]

A more likely scenario to illustrate that might be a QB who is running a down the line option may turn upfield and while running full speed, tosses the ball backward at the B45 but the ball is caught by the trailing back at the 42. He tossed it backward but that doesn't matter - it was touched beyond the point of the throw, so it's forward.

Don't think we can say that he "tosses the ball backward", but maybe that it appeared to be "backward" since he continued running at "full speed" and he was still well in front of the receiver when it was caught.  Easy to miss this call if you don't simply go by the rule which says that the path of the ball is determined by two simple factors as Hawkeye noted in his earlier post:

1. The spot where it first became a pass, and
2. the spot where it first touched something

[ABoselli]

Backward in relation to himself. I think there is some principle somewhere regarding relative motion and inertia that go into explaining this effect.

I remember a play that happened in a pro game, I think it was a Pittsburgh/Patriots playoff game game where there was a pick by the Steelers and as he moved upfield after the catch, the intercepting player realized he was about to be tackled, so he tossed it to a trailing teammate who caught it beyond the point of the pass even though the player's motion was backward in relation to his own at the time. It was flagged and brought back to the spot of the pass and penalized from there.

We've gotten a little off the reservation, though, in regards to the opening post of this thread. Absent any contact by a defender once the passer has started his forward throwing motion, where the ball touches the ground, a player or an official in relation to himself determines forward or backward.