Author Topic: Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?  (Read 7188 times)

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?
« on: September 08, 2010, 11:51:28 AM »
All cases start with 4th & 8 at the A-35 yard line, and the player who comes back in after crossing the sideline and leaving the field of play did not have a substitute player enter the field to replace him.  In each case, do we have a Substitution Foul or a Legal Substitution (flag or no flag?):

1.  WR A-81 leaves the huddle and the field of play before realizing that he was not the 12th player as he thought, and immediately returns to the huddle just before the huddle breaks.

2.  WR A-81 leaves the huddle and the field of play before realizing that he was not the 12th player as he thought, and immediately returns to the field of play, staying just in front of his team area just inside the sideline.

3.  Center A-65 leaves the huddle and the field of play assuming that A-25 the long snapper (also a backup running back) had come in, before realizing that the team was not punting, and immediately returns to the field of play and assumes his normal position over the ball.

4.  Center A-65 leaves the huddle and the field of play with 2 of his teammates assuming that the "punting team" is coming on, before realizing that only 2 substitutes came in and the team was not punting, and immediately returns to the field of play and assumes his normal position over the ball.

5.  QB A-12 leaves the huddle and the field of play assuming that A-14 the backup QB (also a backup WR) had come in, before realizing that A-14 is in as a WR who actually replaced A-81.  A-12 immediately returns to the field of play and assumes his normal position under the center.

It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Kalle

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Re: Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 12:23:38 PM »
#1-#5: foul, illegal substitution (#1 may be 15 yards for a simulated substitution, if there is no defensive coverage on A-81). A player who loses his status as a player by going to the team area when the ball is dead must stay out at least one down, unless there is a charged timeout. See rule 3-5-2-d and A.R. 3-5-2-VII which are very explicit.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 12:37:13 PM »
What if the player just steps over the sideline and does not enter the team area?  Talks to the coach, and the coach tells him to get his a** back out on the field.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 12:42:36 PM »
What if the player just steps over the sideline and does not enter the team area?  Talks to the coach, and the coach tells him to get his a** back out on the field.

As the A.R. specifically talks about the team area I'd say that as long as the player does not enter the team area and is not trying to confuse the defense he has not become a replaced player just by the action of going out of bounds.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 07:51:24 AM »
Here's AR 3.2.5.VII in easy to read format itemizing the "6 facts":

1. Team A has 11 players in the huddle.
2. A81 mistakenly thinks he has been replaced.
3. and runs to his team area.
3. He is immediately sent back onto the field
4. and assumes a position on the line of scrimmage near his sideline.
5. The entire team has been stationary for one second before the snap
6. and there has not been a referee’s timeout.

Here's the definition of an AR from the rules:

A rule interpretation, or approved ruling (A.R.), is an official decision on a given statement of facts.  Aren't the two most important facts missing in the five questions posed at the atsrt of the thread here since the player who left the field never entered the Team Area, and did not stay near his sideline?

All 3 areas on the sideline between the 25's (Restricted Area, Coaches Box, and Team Area) are dimensionally identified in the Rule Book and they are clearly not interchangeable terms - each is a unique and distinct area.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 01:00:25 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Kalle

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Re: Substitution Scenarios - Flag or no Flag?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 08:10:15 AM »
Ah yes, if your questions are actually for a player who does not enter his team area, then I'd say all five are legal plays, with the exception of #1, which might be illegal depending on the defense reactions. I assumed, as you didn't specify where the player went, that he went to his team area, as that is the only interesting case in light of the language in the ruling part of the A.R. 3-5-2-VII.