TD or No? (Mich - ND)

[TXMike]

The B was in great position.  S was a bit behind so may not have had the look he neeeded.  No way to tell for sure from the camera angle.  Kid was in such a hurry to start playing to the crowd he "had" to drop the ball

[yt=425,350]vU3-Dd4Pmwc[/yt]

[110]

Oh, dear. That's not a td at all.

I wonder what would have happened if the whistle hadn't gone, the td not signalled? I giggle at the thought.

[Diablo]

Ya gots to see leather ..... in the EZ as well the field of play.

[bama_stripes]

Y'all are crazy if you think they're going to call OR reverse that at Notre Dame.

[AlUpstateNY]

You would be insane if you called that, or reversed it, ANYWHERE.  Did the player loose control of the ball before technically crossing the goal line?  Apparently, but did he score, untouched, unthreatened and did he beat the defense fair and square.  Every now and theh we all have to consider that the basic concept of having rules is that one team, or player, doesn't gain an unfair advantage over the opponent.  Was there anything unfair about this score?

Should someone, either an official, coach or both whisper a word of caution and clarification into this player's earhole?  Not a bad idea and might avoid additional stupidity in the future.  Being exactly and precisely correct, often isn't always all it's cracked up to be.

[TexLJ]

So if the ball had rolled out of bounds or back into the field instead of into the end zone would you still allow him to score simply because he had beaten the defense and had a clear path to the end zone?

I have always been taught that the goal line is the most important line on the field, and to be sure that the ball breaks the plane.  That seems to be one of the basic components of the game.  How fair is it to the other team if we award a score to a player when the ball does not break the plane of the goal?  No matter how unhindered a player is, isn't he still required to put the ball across the line?

[VALJ]

Fumble.

[KB]

By rule, it's a fumble. No discussion about that.

IMO, the B can't be faulted, he can see the loose ball only after it is in the EZ. And at gamespeed the S, running almost step for step with a top receiver (and having tunnel vision), will also have no chance at deciding that the ball came loose before it was over the GL.

The only official to catch this sits in the replay booth.
Since the whistles had blown and the ball was signalled dead, IW rules would give the ball to ND at the 1/2 yd line.

[GameWillTravel]

IW Ball spotted on the 1 yard line

[Etref]

I do not think the ball was fumbled. It appears he flips his wrist making this a forward pass. Illegal forward pass, incomplete. Penalty from the spot of the foul.


Wouldn't that raise the roof?

[TXMike]

You're probably one of those guys who is not awarding fwd prog to the kid on that wacky HS play where ball was thrown into EZ while he was being taken backwards. ;-)

[Osric Pureheart]

I'm really not sure that we can say this was definitely a fumble without a camera on the goal line.  Parallax is a very tricky thing...

[Diablo]

IMO, the B can't be faulted, he can see the loose ball only after it is in the EZ.

I think the B did err.

Granted he probably could not see the ball because the ball carrier's body eclipsed it.  But before he goes up a la TD Jesus, the B is obligated to see the ball in possession of the player - the same as a wing crashing in on a goal line plunge.
Actually, it appears to me the B starts his TD signal before the ball carrier crosses the GL.  Why rush the signal?  Slightly delayed signals are worth less points.

[Reff54]

I was thinking in the first week I saw a highlight involving a Michigan player who dropped the ball before it crossed the plane of the end zone. 
Anyway.....to me this is not a TD....and should not be called as such.  I realize if you call it back....you are going to be castigated  or worse for doing so....   but until someone steps up and takes a strong stand on this and other actions by players.....they are going to keep doing those things which drive us as officials  crazy....   Then we are the only ones to blame for their behavior....

[KB]

I think the B did err.

Granted he probably could not see the ball because the ball carrier's body eclipsed it.  But before he goes up a la TD Jesus, the B is obligated to see the ball in possession of the player - the same as a wing crashing in on a goal line plunge.
Actually, it appears to me the B starts his TD signal before the ball carrier crosses the GL.  Why rush the signal?  Slightly delayed signals are worth less points.

Good point. We often see how (good) officials take their time especially in bang-bang situations and calm down even more. Maybe the S even opted to go with the B's TD because he did not want to put a crewmate in trouble.

I don't know if the player's action meets the standard definition of "throwing", so I doubt one could rule this an incomplete fw pass.

[wlemonnier]

Some excellent points were made that we all need to remember... "See leather", "Take your time". Complacency is one of the biggest factors in making mistakes. This is just one example... we know better but we get complacent and take it for granted the runner will score or the runner is down.

What could replay do with this?  The "immediate recovery" was by the SJ picking up the ball.  On the theory that replay can award a recovery after a whistle or signal, the ball was dead in the end zone... un-recovered... TD for Team A [8-2-1-c]. If the ball went into and out of bounds through the EZ, it would be a touchback.

IW option is probably the right thing to do in the spirit of the game and rules but can replay rule an IW or would the officials on the field need to do that?  Complicated game we officiate... so go back to the basics and SEE LEATHER and TAKE YOUR TIME whether you have replay or not.

[Jackhammer]

I would've paid for the video of Coach Kelly if that fumble would've been called.

[TXMike]

This play made Dave Parry's 1st Accountability Video for 2010.  Parry said that since nobody recovered the ball in the end zone it would be ruled a TD anyway.   (I guess the B's TD signal would not kill the play?  ?  ? )

[McRef77]

This play made Dave Parry's 1st Accountability Video for 2010.  Parry said that since nobody recovered the ball in the end zone it would be ruled a TD anyway.   (I guess the B's TD signal would not kill the play?  ?  ? )

Mr. Parry is referencing 7-2-5 & 8-2-1-c but Mike that is a great point.  IW provisions apply both to whistles and signals.

Mr. Lemonnier has a good point too.  Can IR review IW?  I think it may be near impossible to rule on the sounds of a whistle on replay but an inadvertent signal can be visible on film.  I don't see anything in Rule 12 that covers IW but could it fall under 12-3-6?  We don't use IR at my level so not sure.

[Osric Pureheart]

I think it may be near impossible to rule on the sounds of a whistle on replay but an inadvertent signal can be visible on film.

When do you say the signal has been made?  When it starts?  When it finishes?  Somewhere in the middle?

[McRef77]

When do you say the signal has been made?  When it starts?  When it finishes?  Somewhere in the middle?

Great question...I know this is splitting hairs but I would probably say when it is recognizable as an official signal.  For example, if signaling a TD, the official's hands/arms will most likely start by his sides.  As he raises them it is not yet a signal but once he has them in the air, the signal becomes a recognizable official signal as shown on FR-158, 159.  I would say at that point.  Any thoughts?

[ref6983]

This play made Dave Parry's 1st Accountability Video for 2010.  Parry said that since nobody recovered the ball in the end zone it would be ruled a TD anyway.   (I guess the B's TD signal would not kill the play?  ?  ? )

This ruling may be updated in the next bulletin. 7-2-5 does not apply since a live ball did not become dead with no one in possession in the end zone. The officials' ruling TD killed the play. This should be A's ball at the spot of fumble under the inadvertent whistle provisions. In the WV/Marshall game there was a similar play but the ball rolled out of the end zone. Had that been reversed to no TD, then a TB and B's ball.

[Diablo]

Can IR review of the entire situation under 12-3-1-a, "Live ball breaking the plane of a goal line while in a ball carrier’s possession."?

[Etref]

Why was there also not a flag for USC on this play?

[McRef77]

Can IR review of the entire situation under 12-3-1-a, "Live ball breaking the plane of a goal line while in a ball carrier’s possession."?

I think this makes the timing of the B's signal that much more crucial.  If the signal occurs prior to the ball crossing, we have a dead ball breaking the plane and not sure if we can apply 12-3-1-a.  I was going to suggest 12-3-3-i but in order to have a loose ball it must be a live ball.