Author Topic: KKI or PF or both  (Read 2293 times)

Offline backjudge79

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KKI or PF or both
« on: September 24, 2010, 02:21:11 PM »
K punts and R gives a valid fair catch signal. The punt was short so R is running forward to catch it. Just as he catches it he is hit immediately and the ball pops backward and is recovered by the kicking team.

I have a flag at the spot of the contact. After discussion we mark 15 yards off at the spot of the foul (awarded fair catch) for a dead ball PF  Now did we get it right? Spot of foul or end of kick? KKI or PF or can you have both!!!! Sometimes this game kicks my BUTT!!!!!!

Offline Curious

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Re: KKI or PF or both
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2010, 02:40:03 PM »
It kicks all our BUTTS at one point or another.

As described, I like the PF call.  First, R caught the ball. Touching precedes possession; so he was not "interfered with" (6-5-6b - comment).  Secondly, for KKI, R's options are 15 yds - previous spot and replay the down or an awarded fair catch at the spot of the foul. 

So, in my admittedly twisted mind, since the kick ended when R caught it, K committed a dead ball PF, the enforcement of which not only gives R the ball back (since the fumble was with a dead ball) but also gives R a 15yd walk-off from the spot of the foul.

Assuming favorable field position after the enforcement, it's the best of both worlds.... 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: KKI or PF or both
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 10:52:34 AM »
You could also drag K off to the sideline and shoot him, but that may be somewhat excessive.  From your description, KCI seems a legitimate call, and takes care of everything.  If the receiver had not clearly completed the Fair Catch prior to being contacted (touched it then muffed it) See Case Book 6-5-6-E, you may not have anything.  This is truly your judgment call.

The contact, judged legal or illegal, happened either while the ball was live, or after it became dead.  It can't be both. 

The objective is to fit a proscribed penalty to an action, if called for, not fit the action to a variety of penalties to exact a certain level of punishment.  It's not personal, it's business.

Offline Curious

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Re: KKI or PF or both
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 05:53:02 PM »
You could also drag K off to the sideline and shoot him, but that may be somewhat excessive.  From your description, KCI seems a legitimate call, and takes care of everything.  If the receiver had not clearly completed the Fair Catch prior to being contacted (touched it then muffed it) See Case Book 6-5-6-E, you may not have anything.  This is truly your judgment call.

The contact, judged legal or illegal, happened either while the ball was live, or after it became dead.  It can't be both. 

The objective is to fit a proscribed penalty to an action, if called for, not fit the action to a variety of penalties to exact a certain level of punishment.  It's not personal, it's business.

One cliche after another.  The original posting said he CAUGHT the punt following a legit fair catch signal; so it's dead.  That's why it's a PF.  Nobody is trying to "fit a prescribed penalty to an action".

But, if I'm the coach, I'd shoot the SON OF A GUN!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: KKI or PF or both
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2010, 03:29:43 PM »
Forgive me but what part of, "So, in my admittedly twisted mind, since the kick ended when R caught it, K committed a dead ball PF, the enforcement of which not only gives R the ball back (since the fumble was with a dead ball) but also gives R a 15yd walk-off from the spot of the foul." doesn't sound like you were trying to squeeze an additional foul out of this situation?

Offline Curious

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Re: KKI or PF or both
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 06:57:30 PM »
Forgive me but what part of, "So, in my admittedly twisted mind, since the kick ended when R caught it, K committed a dead ball PF, the enforcement of which not only gives R the ball back (since the fumble was with a dead ball) but also gives R a 15yd walk-off from the spot of the foul." doesn't sound like you were trying to squeeze an additional foul out of this situation?


How about the FACT that, twisted mind or not, PF is the RIGHT CALL!

LarryW60

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Re: KKI or PF or both
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2010, 07:53:08 AM »
You're both arguing over the phrase "just as he caught it".  Assuming the definition of a "catch" was properly applied in the OP, then it would be a dead-ball personal foul.  This would mean he was hit just as he "demonstrated possession" - making the ball dead before the hit jarred it loose.

If the definition of a "catch" was not properly applied in the OP, then you have a live ball KCI foul.