Time Out and sub

[rickref]

Team A has a time out and is huddled just inside above the nines at the 50. As team coming off field one player suddenly stops near his sideline walking slightly behind rest of the team. Team B never sees him and A snaps quickly after the reday for play.

Do you have anything or not? A coach asked me about this so I am going on his decsription only. I think I know what we should have but I wanted opinions. 

[HoustonUmp]

Sounds to me like the "hidden player" was never inside the 9 yard mark after the ready for play signal was given.  If he was, then you probably had more than 11 in the huddle.

[texref (TX)]

Rule 7-1-2-a-2(b) All Team A players shall have been between the nine-yard
marks after a team timeout, an injury timeout, a radio timeout, a
television timeout or the end of a period,

Amazing what you can learn when you open and read the rule book.

[NVFOA_Ump]

It's pretty clear in the rules that all forms of "hideouts" that use the substitution process, a simulated substitution process, and any forms of deception with sideline huddles where more than 11 players are milling around before the ready for play are illegal.

Rule 9.2.2 Unfair Tactics - ARTICLE 2. a. No player shall conceal the ball in or beneath his clothing or equipment or substitute any other article for the ball.  
b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII).

[Getting Fat]

I must say, NVFOA is usually spot on with his references.  Seems to end the discussion there, although I'd say if Team B sees him and lines up correctly without incurring any disadvantage, I would not flag it.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I must say, NVFOA is usually spot on with his references.  Seems to end the discussion there, although I'd say if Team B sees him and lines up correctly without incurring any disadvantage, I would not flag it.

I would agree - if the charade doesn't work and B sees what's going on and covers A I'd hold my flag, but I'd certainly offer a word of advice to the head coach, that this type of tactic could easily end up earning him a 15 yard USC.

[rickref]

Ok, the nines was my first question in my head when this was brought up but also NVOA_UMP has my next point. Even if in nines I lean that this should be USC.

I am a B and S and I typically pay real close attention to wide outs and how they get into position from time outs.

[Diablo]

I would agree - if the charade doesn't work and B sees what's going on and covers A I'd hold my flag, but I'd certainly offer a word of advice to the head coach, that this type of tactic could easily end up earning him a 15 yard USC.

Wouldn't you flag it as a 7-1-3--a-2 infraction?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Wouldn't you flag it as a 7-1-3--a-2 infraction?

Isn't clear IMO in the original post if player in question was actually a substitute but if he was and we caught it (which we should) we should have a flag.

[Diablo]

Isn't clear IMO in the original post if player in question was actually a substitute but if he was and we caught it (which we should) we should have a flag.

He doesn't have to be a substitute to be compliant.  Team A came out of a TO.

[NVFOA_Ump]

He doesn't have to be a substitute to be compliant.  Team A came out of a TO.

Based on the original post where were they?  I read it to say that they were just inside the nines at the 50.  If that's the case we've potentially got a 9.2.2 if they pull a "guess whose in the game charade" when they break a 12-15 player muddle and some subset of them stays on the field with 1 who started off (from inside the nines), then stops before going off.  If they are actually huddling completely outside the nines, then absolutely we could have either 9.2.2 or 7.1.3.a.2.  In any case we've got a foul.