Author Topic: LSU Fake Field Goal  (Read 26959 times)

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Offline Welpe

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LSU Fake Field Goal
« on: October 09, 2010, 10:08:17 PM »
I know we've seen this play before from LSU, Auburn and others.

At what point do we consider the kicker no longer in position to make a kick?  With tonight's latest, it seems the LSU kicker was well past the holder's back before the holder threw the ball back.

chymechowder

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2010, 10:52:12 PM »
I know we've seen this play before from LSU, Auburn and others.

At what point do we consider the kicker no longer in position to make a kick?  With tonight's latest, it seems the LSU kicker was well past the holder's back before the holder threw the ball back.

aka, insanely dangerously close to being forward. ;)  (also, how lucky was LSU that the ball took a perfect hop into the kicker's hands?  if the belly of the ball doesn't land perfectly flush with the ground, there's virtually no way he scoops that and makes the first down.)

has anyone ever seen the play blown dead because the kicking team failed to strictly adhere to 4-1-3-b?  Is it perhaps one of those things where unofficially the kicking team is given some leeway in a situation similar to tonight's?   

I mean, obviously the rule is there to allow "normal" fake kicks.  I agree that there was a moment when the holder had his knee down while the kicker was not in a position to kick the ball. But "spirit of the rule"-wise, did they get an unfair advantage? It's not like the defense stopped playing because they saw the kicker "not in a position to kick the ball."

But maybe the kicker's running start is an (unfair) advantage?

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2010, 11:55:38 PM »
Lil help here guys to someone who is proficient in NFHS rules but not in NCAA rules...

Why did this not fall under the 4th down fumble rule? I've heard it was because that rule only applies beyond the line of scrimmage. Is that true?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2010, 11:57:45 PM »
Lil help here guys to someone who is proficient in NFHS rules but not in NCAA rules...

Why did this not fall under the 4th down fumble rule? I've heard it was because that rule only applies beyond the line of scrimmage. Is that true?

4th down fumble rules apply anywhere on the field.  It has to be a fumble in order for that rule to come into play.  This was just a backwards pass.

T.C. Welton

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 08:58:19 AM »
Wow, what a play!

I would love to see this one quite a few times from all the angles in HD and slow motion.  I would like to verify beyond a shadow of a doubt that the holders knee stays down.  It sure looks to be the case.  And then, the AMAZING LUCK OR SKILL displayed when that ball bounces just right.  I say skill just in case it was planned that way (never know with Les Miles).  So close to forward...

Mike, do you happen to have a good clip on this sir?

What I find particularly interesting is that this was not ruled down.  Steve Shaw is one of the best, unquestioned (in my mind at least).  If the holder didn't pick his knee up then it seems like the case must be that someone doesn't want this type of play ruled down.  This has been covered my places and I believe that the NCAA has covered it as well.  In this case, I defer to Steve Shaw and the replay officials.  It is one I will continue to look into though.

This is a big time play in a big time game with all sorts of interesting things happening.

One question I have often had watching these sort of situations.  Is there a mechanism for the referee to initiate the video review?  For example on this forward/backward pass...Mr. Shaw appears to be taking a look at this as he points to the ground and seems to be looking where the ball went.  Had video not initiated the review, could he have initiated it somehow?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 09:57:28 AM »
4th down fumble rules apply anywhere on the field.  It has to be a fumble in order for that rule to come into play.  This was just a backwards pass.

Isn't a  backward pass that hits the ground a fumble?  Statistically it is, but I understand statistic rules and playing rules sometimes conflict.

When the ball hit the ground, isn't it no longer in player possession?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 10:04:21 AM »
What I find particularly interesting is that this was not ruled down.  Steve Shaw is one of the best, unquestioned (in my mind at least).  If the holder didn't pick his knee up then it seems like the case must be that someone doesn't want this type of play ruled down.  This has been covered my places and I believe that the NCAA has covered it as well.  In this case, I defer to Steve Shaw and the replay officials.  It is one I will continue to look into though.

Steve Shaw has been the top rated referee in the SEC for the past few years.

LSU (and others have used this fake for a number of years (LSU used it to beat South Carolina two years ago).  It has never been called down, even though by a technical reading of the rule it possibly could be.

Quote
One question I have often had watching these sort of situations.  Is there a mechanism for the referee to initiate the video review?  For example on this forward/backward pass...Mr. Shaw appears to be taking a look at this as he points to the ground and seems to be looking where the ball went.  Had video not initiated the review, could he have initiated it somehow?

No.  Only the booth can review the play.  By his actions, he may be able to show enough doubt that the booth official will recognize this and call for the review, but there is no "official" way for the referee to ask for a review.

And in the NCAA, the replay decision is entirely up to the review official, the referee doesn't even see the reviewed play.  That is different from the NFL where the referee makes the final decision upon looking at the play.

Offline TXMike

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 10:10:03 AM »
A backward pass is not the same as a fumble as far as the playing rules go although apparently for stat purposes it may be handled the same.  Ex:  4th and 10, Team A runs an option right.  The RB muffs the backward pass and ball is rolling around.  Anyone can recover and advance that loose ball


As for the knee down, video is forthcoming  stay tuned.  But this is not the "1st rodeo" on this.  LSU (and other teams) have run this same play over the past years and I have NEVER seen them stop play, although I believe they should have.  Once the kicker is no longer in a position to make the kick (assuming he did not actually fake making it), the holder must be up off the ground the way I read the rule.   The Gator message boards are on fire re this play and although the UF HC seemed to be focused only on the forward vs backward pass part of the play, I have no doubt he will get word about the other issue (knee down) and will ask SEC for clarification/

Offline Welpe

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2010, 11:21:51 AM »
We've certainly seen this before, so I guess I've answered my own question more or less.  The SEC at least is pretty liberal in interpreting this.

Mike, would you blow this dead in a high school game?

Offline TXMike

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2010, 11:36:13 AM »
In the latest one, the holder seems to get rid of the ball much faster than in previous versions.  It might be possible to rule here that the ball was gone before the holder was totally out of position but I think that is a technical argument.  There is no way this kicker was going to kick the ball therefore I think the exception should NOT apply.  The holder gets an advantage by having his knee down as he has a more stable base from which to flip the ball.  Pick your knee up and lets see if you can pull this off.

[yt=425,350]evnZcwxtVZA[/yt]

Online Etref

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2010, 03:23:52 PM »
We've certainly seen this before, so I guess I've answered my own question more or less.  The SEC at least is pretty liberal in interpreting this.

Mike, would you blow this dead in a high school game?

I doubt he would, he is a backjuge and 25 yards from the ball.................... ;D
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline TXMike

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2010, 03:45:37 PM »
I doubt he would, he is a backjuge and 25 yards from the ball.................... ;D

My R flags delay of game again and you bet I will be blowing this dead, flagging roughing the passer, flagging intentional grounding, and anything else back there that suits me!!

fbljuj

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »
We had this exact same play last year and with the same results, the ball should be dead by rule due to NO WAY the kicker was in postion to kick the ball, the holder had his knee on the ground yet play continued on. I do not get it. Understood the "rules" are different when I'm watching BTCF on a major network, but what do I do next Sat. on a D3 level when a coach was watching the same game and tries the exact same play? I'm stuck either way............ ???

Offline TXMike

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2010, 05:17:55 PM »
http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/gatorbytes/2010/10/10/sec-says-officials-made-correct-call-on-lsus-fake-field-goal/#more-6743


SEC says officials made correct call on LSU’s fake field goal
by Jason Lieser
The SEC’s officials supervisor said the field crew made the correct call on LSU’s fake field goal in the fourth quarter of the Tigers’ 33-29 win at Florida on Saturday.

Rogers Redding, the conference’s head of officiating, said through an SEC spokesperson that all rules were applied correctly as LSU converted the trick play that led to its game-winning touchdown.

Here is a quick recap of the play, then we’ll get into the rule book explanation:

Florida is up 29-26 with :35 left. LSU lines up for an apparent 53-yard field goal. Holder Derek Helton takes the snap and blindly throws it backwards over his head from Florida’s 43-yard line as kicker Josh Jasper runs around him to the right. The ball appears to bounce on the 43 before Jasper collects it and starts running. He gets 5 yards, converting a fourth-and-3.

(Click here and go to point No. 2 for a video of the play)

Redding did not mention whether it should have been ruled a forward pass. Looking the replay, there is not strong enough evidence to overturn the call on the field, which was that it was not a forward pass.

So, here’s the question: Should the ball have been whistled dead due to Rule 7-2-2a?

Here is the rule, straight from the NCAA manual: “When a backward pass or fumble is caught or recovered by an inbounds player, the ball continues in play.”

EXCEPTION: “On fourth down before a change of team possession, when a Team A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the fumbler, the ball is dead. If the catch or recovery is beyond the spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble. If the catch or recovery is behind the spot of the fumble, the ball remains at the spot of the catch or recovery.”

Reading that, it would indicate the play should have been dead once an LSU player other than the fumbler recovered it. However, the reason that rule is not a factor on the play is because it technically was not a fumble, the SEC said.

Rule 2-10-1 defines a fumble as, “any act other than passing, kicking or successful handling that results in loss of player possession.”

Because Helton’s move was considered a “backward pass,” it is not a fumble. Thus the aforementioned fourth-down fumble rule was not in effect.

There also was a question as to whether Helton was down when he was holding the ball with his knee on the ground because LSU did not follow through with an actual kick.

An SEC spokesperson said the officials got that part of the call correct, too, because of Rule 4-1-3b:

A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead when any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls or loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot [EXCEPTION: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule.].

I added the underlining. Because Jasper technically was in reasonable position to attempt a kick, Helton qualified for the exception.

Reff54

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 02:39:43 PM »
The pass sure looked forward from the angle where you saw the back of the holder and the toss by his right arm   come from in front of where he was going to place the ball down for a FG if they chose to go that route.   I was always told when in doubt....a pass is forward....  it looked forward to me....

I've always thought Steve Shaw was one of the really great WH's in college football.  He is at a huge disadvantage to tell whether its forward or backward....because of his initial position which of course mechanically is correct.  Watching the replay he's bustin his butt to get to a position to see the play...but has to circle backward himself to try to get into position...he's got a bad angle himself....
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:43:32 PM by Reff54 »

Offline Welpe

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2010, 02:42:58 PM »
Take a look at where the holder is when he throws the ball and where it lands. Almost exactly on the same yard line. This is about as lateral as you can get.

I think they got that part right. Still not convinced about the other.

Offline TXMike

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2010, 02:59:18 PM »
  I was always told when in doubt....a pass is forward....  it looked forward to me....
Yep. when thrown behind the NZ, WIQ it is forward rather than backward.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2010, 04:12:08 PM »
Florida deserves to lose when they dress up like Georgia.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2010, 04:15:58 PM »
Apparently nobody can point to any case where an NCAA referee shut down a pass by a grounded holder, or where an NCAA supervisor criticized the referee for failing to. It seems the powers that be want this play to be legal. Perhaps the language of the rule should be changed to reflect the way the game is actually played and officiated.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2010, 06:52:26 PM »
Florida deserves to lose when they dress up like Georgia.

Orange jerseys (and orange helmets) is dressing like Georgia?   ???

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2010, 08:07:32 PM »
Orange jerseys (and orange helmets) is dressing like Georgia?   ???

View the video above starting at the 1:30 mark and tell me that doesn't look like Georgia.

Offline RMR

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2010, 11:15:51 PM »
View the video above starting at the 1:30 mark and tell me that doesn't look like Georgia.

I was thinking Clemson - or the 80s Gators.
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Diablo

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2010, 11:30:45 AM »
TXMike,
Wasn't there a previous communication from RR indicating that, if the kicker left his position by running behind the holder, the ball remained live?  However, if the kicker ran away from the holder, the ball becomes dead?

fbljuj

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2010, 09:39:53 AM »
Apparently nobody can point to any case where an NCAA referee shut down a pass by a grounded holder, or where an NCAA supervisor criticized the referee for failing to. It seems the powers that be want this play to be legal. Perhaps the language of the rule should be changed to reflect the way the game is actually played and officiated.
Can Not agree with you more. I had a high school game last year and the coach described he was going to use this play. Told him it was fine as long as you holder did not have his knee on the ground and he went ballistic. Just a matter of time before a D3 or D2 does this, propably this weekend and then what do we do, what do we do? ???

Offline copedaddy

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Re: LSU Fake Field Goal
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2010, 08:55:20 PM »
Well just to play the bad guy here, if you look at the tape from behind the snapper, when the holder picks the ball up to pitch it over his shoulder, the kicker is still "behind the ball" and one could say still in position to kick the ball. Even though is motion is taking him to the right, could he still be considered "in position"?  Thats the way I see it, and why I'm a backjudge.