Author Topic: Pylon Play  (Read 30458 times)

Offline Welpe

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Pylon Play
« on: October 11, 2010, 10:29:10 AM »
A22 has the ball at the B-2 when he voluntarily goes airborne and the ball in player possession breaks the plane of the sideline at the B-1.  Before contacting anything else, the ball still in player possession touches the right side of the pylon (the side away from the middle of the field).

I had thought there was an interpretation that this was a touchdown but I cannot for the life of me find it.  Can anyone help or am I off base on this one?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2010, 11:13:10 AM »
I believe based on the references below he's actually OB and the subsequent spot is where the ball first crossed the sideline.

4.2.4.e When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).

AR 8.2.1.IV:  IV. The ball, in possession of airborne ball carrier A21, crosses the sideline above the one-yard line, penetrates the plane of the goal line extended and is then declared dead out of bounds in possession of A21. RULING: Ball is declared out of bounds at the one-yard line (Rules 2-11-1 and 4-2-4-e).
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Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2010, 11:14:20 AM »
Here's my question, is the pylon considered part of the goal line extended or the goal line itself?

Offline texref

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2010, 11:23:47 AM »
Here's my question, is the pylon considered part of the goal line extended or the goal line itself?

I'll give it a shot. The pylon is in the end zone and out of bounds. A runner who goes airborne on his own does not get the benefit of the goal line extended so he is OOB where the ball crossed the sideline.
If the runner is airborne because he was hit by an opponent then he is given the goal line extended.
So, I think the answer to your question is "sometimes".

Offline TXMike

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2010, 11:29:44 AM »
http://www.romgilbert.us/p-1010.htm

RG has a whole min-missive on this

ABoselli

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2010, 11:33:49 AM »
Pylon is the goal line. Doesn't matter which side of the pylon is contacted by the ball.

As long as the runner is not touching anything OB before the ball contacts the pylon (other than another player or an official) -touchdown.


Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2010, 11:38:52 AM »
http://www.romgilbert.us/p-1010.htm

RG has a whole min-missive on this

Mike, I saw that earlier but it appears he doesn't address this particular scenario.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 11:50:01 AM »
Pylon is the goal line. Doesn't matter which side of the pylon is contacted by the ball.

As long as the runner is not touching anything OB before the ball contacts the pylon (other than another player or an official) -touchdown.



Can't be, since based on the above rule references a runner who becomes airborne on his own (jumps or dives) is OB where ball first crosses the sideline and that is the forward progress spot (the OB spot), and that has to occur before the ball touches the outside corner of the pylon.  A runner who dives on his own loses the benefit of the goal line extended.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:55:19 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 11:59:24 AM »
Can't be, since based on the above rule references a runner who becomes airborne on his own (jumps or dives) is OB where ball first crosses the sideline and that is the forward progress spot (the OB spot), and that has to occur before the ball touches the outside corner of the pylon.  A runner who dives on his own loses the benefit of the goal line extended.

Are you then saying that the goal line ends at the pylon and does not include the pylon?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 12:12:16 PM »
Are you then saying that the goal line ends at the pylon and does not include the pylon?

Yes, the pylon is out of bounds, and is not part of the goal line.  It is part of the goal line extended.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 12:30:31 PM »
Isn't this more or less Rom's play #8?

"A84 dives or jumps for the sideline and is airborne as he extends the ball such that the ball contacts the goal line pylon before A84 is declared out of bounds. Ruling: Touchdown. The ball became dead when the ball contacted the pylon."

As I understand it, the key point is when does the ball become dead. If the ball becomes dead inbounds or by touching the pylon, it is a touchdown. If the ball becomes dead out of bounds in player possession who is voluntarily airborne, the ball must break the plane of the goal line. If involuntarily airborne, he gets the extended goal line.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 12:34:06 PM »
Isn't this more or less Rom's play #8?

"A84 dives or jumps for the sideline and is airborne as he extends the ball such that the ball contacts the goal line pylon before A84 is declared out of bounds. Ruling: Touchdown. The ball became dead when the ball contacted the pylon."

As I understand it, the key point is when does the ball become dead. If the ball becomes dead inbounds or by touching the pylon, it is a touchdown. If the ball becomes dead out of bounds in player possession who is voluntarily airborne, the ball must break the plane of the goal line. If involuntarily airborne, he gets the extended goal line.


It is close but he doesn't address whether or not the runner broke the plane of the sideline with the ball before touching the pylon.

Mike L

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 01:41:21 PM »
Perhaps he does not address it because it does not matter. Ball in player possession hits pylon before anything else touches oob = td.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 01:49:34 PM »
I don't necessarily disagree and it matches AR 8-6-1-I for a loose ball striking a pylon but I'm trying to find something as detailed as I can to show another official.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 05:39:01 PM »
Perhaps he does not address it because it does not matter. Ball in player possession hits pylon before anything else touches oob = td.

That doesn't agree with the rules.  For a ball in player possession when that runner goes airborne without defensive contact (he jumps or dives on his own) the ball must cross the goal line inbounds.  There is no "goal line extended" in this instance per rule 4.2.4.e and AR 8.2.1.IV.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 05:42:33 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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ABoselli

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2010, 06:36:36 PM »
Can't be, since based on the above rule references a runner who becomes airborne on his own (jumps or dives) is OB where ball first crosses the sideline and that is the forward progress spot (the OB spot), and that has to occur before the ball touches the outside corner of the pylon.  A runner who dives on his own loses the benefit of the goal line extended.

Any play ever where a player extends the ball out (while he's either airborne or touching inbounds) and it touches the pylon while in his possession is a touchdown. There are no case plays which differentiate what side of the pylon is touched by the ball in ruling TD or no TD. Ball hits pylon = touchdown.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2010, 06:54:38 PM »
Any play ever where a player extends the ball out (while he's either airborne or touching inbounds) and it touches the pylon while in his possession is a touchdown. There are no case plays which differentiate what side of the pylon is touched by the ball in ruling TD or no TD. Ball hits pylon = touchdown.

What rule can you point to to support this old adage?

ABoselli

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2010, 07:15:37 PM »
End Zones

ARTICLE 3. The end zone at each end of the field is the rectangle defined
by the goal line, sidelines and end line. The goal line and goal line pylons
are in the end zone
, and a teamís end zone is the one it is defending (A.R.
8-5-1-X and A.R. 8-6-1-I).

Ball Out of Bounds

ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores
a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game
official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds (whether the inside edge or outside edge or anywhere) behind the goal line.

III. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne at
the two-yard line. His first contact with the ground is out of bounds
three yards beyond the goal line. The ball, in possession of the ball
carrier, passed over the pylon. RULING: Touchdown (Rule 4-2-
4-e).

Last one not exactly a "touching" reference but since it doesn't say what part of the pylon it crosses over, just that it passes over the pylon, I used it.

It has always been a rule of thumb for any supervisor I've ever worked for or listened to that this was the case. I've never heard someone say, "Well, what side of the pylon did the ball hit?" when deciding if there was a TD or not. If we were to start ruling on 'sides of the pylon the ball touched' we'd be in some deep soup.




Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2010, 08:15:06 PM »
We simply have to rule where the ball first crossed the sideline, nothing more, nothing less.

If simply touching any part of the pylon by an airborne runner who dived for the corner with the ball first across the sideline at the two but reached back and touched the pylon as he flew by was a TD that would be a direct conflict with both a real rule (4.2.4.e) and an actual AR (8.2.1.IV).

We've always been instructed by our interpreters (since at least 2000), that a diving runner must get the ball into the EZ inside the sidelines based on the rules (Rules 2.11.1, 4.2.4.e, and AR 8.2.1.IV).

IMO the rules and the AR have precedence over an old adage until there's an actual rule or AR that says that this would be a TD.
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ABoselli

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2010, 08:36:38 PM »
b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

There's the rule. No adage there.

If it is in the possession of a player (either airborne or touching inbounds), it's a touchdown. If it's not, it's a touchback (or a safety if A put it there).

Either way, it's not simply 'out of bounds'. It's out of bounds behind the goal line.

Think about it - how can we rule that a fumbled ball that hits the front pylon on the outside edge is a touchback? It's because the entire pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. We treat the possessed ball the exact same way in terms of its advance - touches the pylon, then it's out of bounds behind the goal line. Behind the goal line means touchdown in this example, just like anywhere else on the goal line.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2010, 09:03:31 PM »
End Zones

ARTICLE 3. The end zone at each end of the field is the rectangle defined
by the goal line, sidelines and end line. The goal line and goal line pylons
are in the end zone
, and a teamís end zone is the one it is defending (A.R.
8-5-1-X and A.R. 8-6-1-I).

The part in italics is the key.  The end zone itself is a rectangle that is defined by the sidelines, goal line, and end line.  It doesn't extend beyond that other than to also include the goal line pylons.

In a perfect world the front corner of the end zone would be defined by some laser-thin vertical marker.  They tried that in the old days with the little flag sticks but safety got the best of that idea.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2010, 09:31:21 PM »
b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

There's the rule. No adage there.

But that doesn't mean anything in this case.  A ball that touches an official that is a yard out of bounds and a yard behind the goal line is also out of bounds behind the goal line.  That doesn't mean it's IN the end zone.

Quote
If it is in the possession of a player (either airborne or touching inbounds), it's a touchdown. If it's not, it's a touchback (or a safety if A put it there).

There is no rule that says that.  In fact, there is a rule that contradicts that.

Quote
Either way, it's not simply 'out of bounds'. It's out of bounds behind the goal line.

True, but "behind the goal line" and "in the end zone" aren't the same thing.

Quote
Think about it - how can we rule that a fumbled ball that hits the front pylon on the outside edge is a touchback?

Because it was not in player possession, so it wasn't OOB until it touched something OOB.  And since the pylon is placed OOB and in the end zone, it must be in the end zone when it touched something OOB.

But a ball in player possession is treated differently.  If the player is voluntarily airborne, he does NOT get the benefit of the goal line extended, and the ball must pass INSIDE the pylon.

Now, I understand officials have been taught for years that a ball that touches the pylon is in the end zone, and it may be an easier call to sell.  But it is in direct conflict with the rules and ARs, or at a minimum, there are conflicting rules.

Offline foureyedzebra

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2010, 11:03:01 PM »
b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

There's the rule. No adage there.

If it is in the possession of a player (either airborne or touching inbounds), it's a touchdown. If it's not, it's a touchback (or a safety if A put it there).

Either way, it's not simply 'out of bounds'. It's out of bounds behind the goal line.

Think about it - how can we rule that a fumbled ball that hits the front pylon on the outside edge is a touchback? It's because the entire pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. We treat the possessed ball the exact same way in terms of its advance - touches the pylon, then it's out of bounds behind the goal line. Behind the goal line means touchdown in this example, just like anywhere else on the goal line.



You seem to be completely disregarding 4-2-4-e

e. When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).

2-8-2
Forward Progress
ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement
by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the
position of the ball when it became dead by rule (Rules 4-1-3-a, b and p;
Rules 4-2-1 and 4; and Rule 5-1-3-a Exception) (A.R. 5-1-3-I-VI and A.R.
8-2-1-I-IV) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).

If a ball in posession of an airborne (by choice) player, who dove toward the sideline, crosses the sideline the ball becomes dead by rule at that point. If it then crosses the goal line or goal line extended, it does not matter because it is already dead.

However, 4-2-4-e does say "When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline..."
(The original question does not say if the ball carrier dove toward the sideline or toward the goal line or at an angle toward both.)
So, if a ball carrier were to be 6" from OOB but running completely parallel to the side line
and were to dive toward the goal line from the 3 yd line and be blocked OOB; it is likely that he would move in such a way that the ball would cross the sideline before crossing the goal line extended and before any part of the player's body touched the ground OOB. If this were the case, by rule it would be a  ^good because he did not dive toward the sideline; he dove toward the goal line.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:06:04 PM by foureyedzebra »
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2010, 06:09:38 AM »
Here's the related plays from last year's NCAA Football Rules Play Situations #2 (October 1, 2009) that generated some similar discussions last year:

10. Ball carrier A22 is running near the sideline in an attempt to score. At the B-1 he is hit, the contact causing him to leave the ground such that the ball passes across the goal line extended outside the pylon. A22 lands out of bounds beyond the goal line extended.

RULING: Touchdown. By interpretation A22 is considered a ball carrier because his leaving the ground was not voluntary but was due to contact by an opponent. (2-11-2, 4-2-4-e, 8-2-1-a)

11. Ball carrier A22 is running near the sideline in an attempt to score. At the B-1 he goes airborne by leaping such that the ball passes across the goal line extended outside the pylon. A22 lands out of bounds beyond the goal line extended.

RULING: Not a touchdown. The goal line is not extended for an airborne player, i.e., one who leaves the ground voluntarily. The ball is out of bounds at the point where it crossed the sideline. (2-11-2, 4-2-4-e, AR 8-2-1-IV)

IMO it's pretty clear from the rules and AR's that an airborne player who leaves the ground voluntarily does not get the benefit of the goal line extended and must get the ball into the EZ inside the sidelines to be a TD.  Memo play #11 above says that very clearly.  Do we have to decide if the ball hit the inside front corner of the pylon first (EZ & OB simultaneously), or the back side of the pylon first (OB first), IMO the rules say that we do - just another of our many judgment calls.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 06:27:01 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2010, 06:44:24 AM »
Got a confirmation from Rom that it does not matter when (or if) the player crosses the sideline before the ball touching the pylon, and it does not matter which part of the pylon the ball touches - it's always a touchdown.